The Reagan, Clinton and Bush regimes extinguished the
rights of American workers to make a decent living by the imposition of
policies that have resurrected slavery by the outsourcing of most of the good
paying jobs here. Example: The American textile industry outsourced to Mexico
and $2-a-day workers. The constant mantra from our leaders “American workers
must learn to compete with the global workers” or slaves-Nike-$.25-an-hour
slaves with no benefits, etc. Our industry slavers closed down here to maximize
their now enormous profits, paying no tariffs and little or no taxes-even
getting subsidies from our oligarchy government. Eleven trillion dollars is
hidden away in Swiss banks. Is one of them Phil Gramm bank??? And that is the
least amount known about and just the tip of the iceberg!
Today, in this ongoing manufactured crisis to crush the
American workers even further, to eliminate benefits, retirements etc. and
hoping to pay $.25 an hour to the remaining job holders. We, the American people,
should now demand that all of the Congressmen who facilitated this economic
crime should have their salaries reduced to $.25 an hour, with no health and
retirement benefits and no paid aides to do most of their work, and also make
it illegal for any retired congressmen to sit on highly-paid corporate boards
after their retirements. Last time I read, there were 300 retired congressmen
sitting on corporate boards. Is it reward for complicity in serving the
corporate and super riches’ interests instead of the common people’s
interests-or the other 99 percent of the population??? This is now the country
of opportunity for one percent of the population!
Instead of slavery, resurrect Pres. Eisenhower’s tax and
tariff policies. Put caps on obscenely high salaries by imposing a 99 percent
tax over a certain decent amount. There was one known billionaire before Reagan
and today it is close to 1,000-at whose expense???
This article appears in Jul 30 โ Aug 5, 2009.
MAKE LOCAL JOURNALISM HAPPEN
Republish our articles for free, online or in print, under a Creative Commons license.
I would agree with most of what you have said. However, I would also add jsut a few facts.
Outsourcing of jobs has been a fact for thousands of years. The situation in the 80’s under Reagan was created by Carter in the 70’s, and led to GM being the first to move 6 of its factories to Mexico in the mid-80’s. Then with the signing of NAFTA the mass migration to Mexico began, and with the acceptance of China first under Clinton with granting China MFN, and then Bush43 allowing China’s entrance into the WTO as a full member, the migration went from Mexico to China, and other countries.
http://www.sudhian.com/index.php?/articles/show/373
So, I would urge all to seek the repeal of NAFTA, and for the US to leave the WTO. When Bob Dole negotiated the WTO/GATT2 Treaty in 1996 he promised that if it did not work to the benefit of the US that the US would be able to get out of it within six months. Don’t think that was actually placed in the treaty, however, if it is then we should take advantage of it.
Secondly, FDR during the Great Depression instituted a tax rate of 94% on the wealthiest Americans. One of those families was the Rockefellors. The Rockefellors then took their family assets, and placed them in public trusts which the USSC had declared to be tax free entities. Virtually all of the billionaires to which you refer now have their assets in these tax free trust funds.
Next, In the Cayman Islands there is one building that has approximately 20 rooms. However, it is home to some 273 different corporations.
Do as you like, the rich will always find a way to protect themselves.
Iรข โขll say this for you Mr. Greth, youรข โขre brave to have brought this issue up on Source รข ” once theyรข โขve had a friend read your letter to them and explain the big words, the Righteous Right Men of Bend will be at your throat for daring to expose the American Dream for what it really is.
Iรข โขm reminded of a รข Town Hall Meetingรข ย starring Bush II. A middle aged woman he was talking to told him she had three jobs รข ” instead of being horrified that anyone, least of all a (probable) mother should have to work three jobs to make ends meet he regurgitated a dollop of the ideological dreck his handlers had taught him. It was along the lines of รข well inรข โขt รข ~Merica great, that someone can work that hard!?รข ย or something equally vacuous.
The greatest bait and switch in recorded history has been perpetrated on the American working and middle class over the last four decades. The minimum wage failed to maintain its true value and now it is impossible to live on unless you work 60-80 hours a week. The middle class has also been fooled รข ” many of them are nothing better than wage-slaves and there are fewer single earner families to help maintain those รข family valuesรข ย Conservatives love so much. Strange that it was Conservative ideology and policies that so impoverished the middle and working classes that they had no alternative but to spend less and less time bringing up their kids.
One example: Many American workers rely for their healthcare on their boss รข ” many would lose their (and their kidsรข โข) healthcare if they are fired or leave their jobs รข ” this gives employers inappropriate leverage over their employees, leverage many employers freely use to further reduce the pay and work conditions of their serfs er, I mean employees.
Why have the working and middle classes allowed this to happen? Many reasons, but hereรข โขs a few suggestions: education system designed to produce compliant workers rather than thinking citizens; both these classes have been set against each other by silly ideological battles such as รข gay marriageรข ย, รข abortion rightsรข ย, รข the culture warรข ย, รข gun rightsรข ย รข ” and all the while they have been robbed blind by the upper class, their work conditions degraded, the value of their earnings diminished, their quality of life irreparably damaged; they have been dumbed down by radio talk-show demagogues and disgraceful TV รข newsรข ย that is little more than people with nice hair telling lies.
America, divided you fell.
Richard Shortall said:
Iรข โขm reminded of a รข Town Hall Meetingรข ย starring Bush II. A middle aged woman he was talking to told him she had three jobs รข ” instead of being horrified that anyone, least of all a (probable) mother should have to work three jobs to make ends meet he regurgitated a dollop of the ideological dreck his handlers had taught him. It was along the lines of รข well inรข โขt รข ~Merica great, that someone can work that hard!?รข ย or something equally vacuous.”
I’d ask you to prove this, however, I know you can’t. There was a townhall meeting at a church in Washington D.C. where Bush praised single mothers, and acknowledged how hard they were working for a living.
“The minimum wage failed to maintain its true value and now it is impossible to live on unless you work 60-80 hours a week. The middle class has also been fooled รข ” many of them are nothing better than wage-slaves”
The minimum wage was a failure from the start, and was introduced by those of your kind. All the minimum
wage has ever done is allow for the cost of goods to rise, give cover to the employer who does not want to pay a fair wage, etc.
“and there are fewer single earner families to help maintain those รข family valuesรข ย Conservatives love so much. Strange that it was Conservative ideology and policies that so impoverished the middle and working classes that they had no alternative but to spend less and less time bringing up their kids.”
What policies are those? The importation of cheap labor? The teaching of girls/women that to be a mother, and a housewife, is to be a slave to the husband?
Give an example of some “conservative ” policy.
“One example: Many American workers rely for their healthcare on their boss รข ” many would lose their (and their kidsรข โข) healthcare if they are fired or leave their jobs รข ” this gives employers inappropriate leverage over their employees, leverage many employers freely use to further reduce the pay and work conditions of their serfs er, I mean employees.”
And your solution is what?
“Many reasons, but hereรข โขs a few suggestions: education system designed to produce compliant workers rather than thinking citizens; both these classes have been set against each other by silly ideological battles such as รข gay marriageรข ย, รข abortion rightsรข ย, รข the culture warรข ย, รข gun rightsรข ย -”
Tell me, which side of the aisle introduced those programs into the school, and removed shop classes, PE, etc.? Was it not yours?
America, divided you fell.
Satan must be wearing a wool coat–Swipies and Shortall on the same side of the coin!!!
Somebody’s head is going to explode!!
One of the great myths of American history is that slavery ended in 1865. A recent book by Douglas A. Blackmon – Slavery By Another Name (see web site of the same name dot com) – shot that down. Slavery by another name has continued ever since and continues to this day. Edward R. Murrow exposed a form of this slavery almost 50 years ago with a penetrating documentary – The Harvest of Shame – depicting conditions of migrant laborers in agriculture. Nothing has changed since then as the exposed conditions of migrant workers in Immokalee, Florida recently proved.
But slavery is not confined to manual laborers if we consider having to sell your integrity and personal life to get or keep a job in that category. You’ll find that kind of servitude in Wall Street and lower echelons of the corporate world. The only difference between these people and the workers in the fields is that the former are better paid and have better material conditions.
Thank every single corrupt workers UNION for bleeding American industry to death. Unions did serve a purpose at the turn of the century ,but eventually morphed into the largest group of domestic blackmailing terrorists that this country will every see. Relentless Union greed is responsible for driving industries into the hands of other countries, while decapitating any semblance of worker productivity and personal responsibility. General Motors forced to hire high school grads at 72 dollars an hour with 70 dollars in benefits….for unskilled labor!!! Adding insult to injury, just tell your non-union supervisor to go fuck himself….your good!!.. your job is safe ….you cant be fired!!! Twilight Zone man
At the DMV yesterday, I saw the classic union problem. I took my number and waited. There were 3 clerks and probably 20 people waiting. At PRECISELY 10:00, two clerks walked from their stations, apparently for a break. Was it coincidence that both were wearing their “SEIU Local 503” shirts? Why do gov’t workers need a union. I agree that the turn of century unions did good things. Now, we have a real challenge in that anytime someone threatens the union’s situation…egangnae
Nice comments. Propose a solution? That works? do you remember about 1989, Ben and Jerry’s Ice Cream was on the hunt for a new CEO. They wanted a first class person to take them into the future and grow, grow grow. At the time, their corporate charter specified that no one could earn more than 10 times the earnings of the lowest paid worker. Whether or not you agree with that concept is irrelevant. They were not able to attract the level of talent they desired until they changed the charter. So much for equality.
Swipies / Shortall:
You guys aren’t going to hijack this thread to carry on with more of your ideological rantings are you?
You two need to find some summer hobbies or something…
Blaming the unions for the decline of industry and business and the current state of the economy is like blaming the fly on the bull’s ass while it’s running you down.
Only 12.5% of the American workforce belongs to a union. Less than 8% in the private sector and just over 36% in the public sector.
I think the real problem is the profit at any cost mentality that afflicts our businesses and industries and the ‘free market’ mantra that our government adheres to in forming what passes for industrial policy.
Institutions and pension funds have large stock holdings in the very companies that are taking jobs over seas. CEO’s and corporate management are judged not on the long range sustainability of the company’s performance, but last quarter’s profits. They have no incentive but to drive down costs regardless of the impact and maximize profits any way they can NOW!! Our government passes laws enabling behaviors that are questionable at best and turns a blind eye to its regulatory responsibilities so they can continue to get the needed funds for the perpetual political campaigning we now experience. And, we, the voters and stockholders and union members and workers and small business men and women continue to ignore the truth as long as we feel we are getting what we need–which never seems to happen. We’ll vote for them again. We’ll hang on to that stock until it goes back up. We’ll act like the clowns in their circus and believe me they will laugh and laugh and laugh until we fall over in exhaustion.
Oh–I agree–I hope this doesn’t get hijacked.
RJ I tend to avoid arguing from the ideological stance but I do frequently encounter people who can only argue from this perspective. My stance is moral, rhetorical and logical. I have no ideology – and being European I have no American ideology (either one) luckily.
R
I agree with your comments Mr Cramer… were it not for unions American workers would not enjoy EVEN the lousy conditions and benefits they currently have – It astonishes me how middle and working class Americans are so ready to kow-tow to their upper class (rich) masters and blame their fellow workers for the “decline” of the US. The actions and thoughts of serfs.
And I’m not happy about being “lumped in” as a hijacker with the moron Swipies – for a start, I’m a much better writer, secondly I’m clearly not asd delusional and demented as he is and thirdly, I don’t call everyone who disagrees with me a liar!
I may be pedantic but there’s a qualitative difference between us
“I’d ask you to prove this, however, I know you can’t” YES WE CAN!!!!!
Woman who was the subject of Bushรข โขs upper class nit-wit gaffe. Feb 4, 2005, Omaha Nebraska, Woman in question: Mary Mornin. Reported on CBS and CNN news
This year the World Health Organization rated the US healthcare system รข ” mostly รข ~employer basedรข โข รข ” 37th in with world in terms of quality of health outcomes. In 2007-8 for the first time, US life expectancy actually dropped. Someone once asked me what my alternative to employer based healthcare insurance would be. This is the type of question someone asks when they have no knowledge of the world outside the US (i.e. the other 95%) รข ” I answered that this is a silly question answered by almost all 36 of the nations whose healthcare systems are rated higher than the US รข ” AND most of these systems are based on Socialized Medicine. To simplify: US rated 37th in quality รข ” 36 countries are better than us รข ” most of them use Socialized Medicine ALL of them with a lower per capita COST.
This ties in with the รข slaveryรข ย topic of the letter to Source: it is ethically inappropriate (and, from the workerรข โขs point of view) tactically naรยฏve to have your bossรข โขs greedy hands on your (and your childrenรข โขs) healthcare. It gives employers too much power รข ” a level of power that is clearly unwise. And as someone who has worked in several other countries I can say with some confidence that bosses here frequently exploit their stranglehold on employee healthcare. According to John de Graaf in รข Take Back Your Timeรข ย the average American worker works 9 weeks per year more than their European counterpart รข ยฆ and add this to the superior healthcare system enjoyed by most Europeans and things donรข โขt look so good Stateside, do they? You canรข โขt improve your employment and health systems if youรข โขre not willing to learn from the better ones.
Mr cramer and Mr RJ I hate to “poop” your party but I got some support in the last blog from Mr Shortall and I think you are both wrong to acuse him of hijaking the blog in the same way the very rude Mr Swipies does,so I did a wordcount of both of their contributions to the 10 commandments and god debate. You can check this if you like but it is clear which man is ranting and raving and basically copying reams of stuff from the internet.
Mr Swipies —- 10,175
Mr Shortall —- 1,804
And you have all noticed how Mr Swipies seems to think we are all lying to him all the time – suggestive of paranoia or at least some childhood trauma.
July 30, 2009 Party Pooper said:
Mr cramer and Mr RJ I hate to “poop” your party but I got some support in the last blog from Mr Shortall and I think you are both wrong to acuse him of hijaking the blog in the same way the very rude Mr Swipies does,so I did a wordcount of both of their contributions to the 10 commandments and god debate. You can check this if you like but it is clear which man is ranting and raving and basically copying reams of stuff from the internet.
Mr Swipies —- 10,175
Mr Shortall —- 1,804″
Mr. Pooper, in your usual disdain for honesty did you happen to notice that I was responding to the posts of at least three others, while Shortall responded mostly with nothing of value?
Secondly, in your “quest” did you happen to notice that you asked me the same series of questions twice while ignoring the first set of answers?
Now, whether you collective clones accept it, or not, matters not to me. However, none of you have said anything that refutes the arguments I have made. Not even you Mr. Pooper. Perhaps you should try it sometime.
“And you have all noticed how Mr Swipies seems to think we are all lying to him all the time – suggestive of paranoia or at least some childhood trauma ”
Ahhh, buit Mr. Pooper, when you say I do not answer your questions when they are right there for you to read then you are a liar. Now, I am very careful as to who I call a liar unlike you when you called ma a “baldfaced liar”, remember?
You on the left have definite delusions of grandeur
smacking of schizophrenia with definite trends of transference. It is simply put what I call the “Al Gore Syndrome”. To you the simple fact that ypou have spoken something into existence thus eliminates any competitive thought. For after you have spooken such all need for debate is over. Others have called this a “god syndrome”.
Perhaps you might indulge me in the other thread and show where my post was in error since you have failed to do so as of yet. And perhaps Mr. Shortall, and Mr. Cramer, would do the same.
That way you could not falsely accuse me of highjacking a thread. Simply answering questions rather then falsely accusing another, or believing you have no need to justify your beliefs since you, or course, are the next thing to “god”, and could never be wrong.
July 30, 2009 Party Pooper said:
Mr cramer and Mr RJ I hate to “poop” your party but You can check this if you like but it is clear which man is ranting and raving and basically copying reams of stuff from the internet.”
BTW Mr. Pooper, this is also a lie. Seems like you are quite fond of avoiding the truth.
I would hate to “highjack” this thread, however, when I read the original post I was somewhat skeptical abiut the billionaire numbers since it seemed to blame America for this new “crisis”. However, as it turns out, there are approx. 739 billionaires in the world which is actually down from the 1,125 of last year. The majority of these billionaires are not Americans.
http://www.forbes.com/2009/03/11/worlds-richest-people-billionaires-2009-billionaires_land.html
Now, I was watching Squack Box, or The Call, yesterday, an dthey were talking of the bonuses being given out by the banks. Under the proposed plan that has been introduced by the banks one of them will actually create 900 new millionaires. Overall, the bonuses will create some 1000+ new millionaires, not billionaires.
Richard Shortall said:
“I’d ask you to prove this, however, I know you can’t” YES WE CAN!!!!!
Woman who was the subject of Bushรข โขs upper class nit-wit gaffe. Feb 4, 2005, Omaha Nebraska, Woman in question: Mary Mornin. Reported on CBS and CNN news”
I read some of the articles on this, and what I found interesting is that there was no reporting on what was said after he made this comment. Would be interesting to see what else he had said.
“This year the World Health Organization rated the US healthcare system รข ” mostly รข ~employer basedรข โข รข ” 37th in with world in terms of quality of health outcomes. In 2007-8 for the first time, US life expectancy actually dropped. Someone once asked me what my alternative to employer based healthcare insurance would be. This is the type of question someone asks when they have no knowledge of the world outside the US (i.e. the other 95%) รข ” I answered that this is a silly question answered by almost all 36 of the nations whose healthcare systems are rated higher than the US รข ” AND most of these systems are based on Socialized Medicine. To simplify: US rated 37th in quality รข ” 36 countries are better than us รข ” most of them use Socialized Medicine ALL of them with a lower per capita COST.”
This is somewhat misleading. In the countries with socialized medicene the doctors, and other healthcare workers, earn approximately 1.2 of what American doctors earn.
In the countries with socialized medicene the wait time for emergeancy services is about 5 times that of a US hospital. And then there is the wait for a transplant, etc. Also, the US system has a higher survival for cancer then any of the other countries.
Then there was the life expectancy statement. The reason for the slip in life expectancy has nothing to do with the healthcare system. It has to do with the increase in obesity especially in women. In 1985 the obesity rate in the US waS 15%. Now it is over 30%, and the cost of treating the illness caused by obesity is close to that of tobacco use.
On the infant mortality issue, the US is the only country that counts infant deaths after birth from genetic defects that cause death within 24 hours, to SIDS, or SUID, in their mortality rate. Other countries only count the deaths at the time of birth.
One should point out that the some of the reason for the rise in obesity is the eating habits of Americans. Poor people on food stamps tend to buy food that is higher in sugar, and fats, because they are cheaper. Then too, since the schools have basically removed PE from the curriculum, and since people on welfare tend not to get the necessary exercise, one could see where the roots of this problem lie at.
“This ties in with the รข slaveryรข ย topic of the letter to Source: it is ethically inappropriate (and, from the workerรข โขs point of view) tactically naรยฏve to have your bossรข โขs greedy hands on your (and your childrenรข โขs) healthcare. It gives employers too much power รข ” a level of power that is clearly unwise. And as someone who has worked in several other countries I can say with some confidence that bosses here frequently exploit their stranglehold on employee healthcare. According to John de Graaf in รข Take Back Your Timeรข ย the average American worker works 9 weeks per year more than their European counterpart รข ยฆ and add this to the superior healthcare system enjoyed by most Europeans and things donรข โขt look so good Stateside, do they? You canรข โขt improve your employment and health systems if youรข โขre not willing to learn from the better ones.”
I would agree that Americans are overworked. I have often wondered how a company can lay off people, and still increase production. Back in the “good ol days” the CEO’s of a company earned an average of 14 to 20 times that of what the average worker earned. Under Clinton the difference jumped to 237-257 times the average workers pay, and under Bush this rate jumped to 400+. Under Obama it is going even higher.
There are many reasons as to why this is occuring, and just plain greed is one of them. Some may blame it on healthcare, which is only a partial reason for the increase (and is based on the federal programs that guarantee healthcare for some thus giving the employer an excuse to actually keep wages lower), other reasons include the importation of cheap labor both legal (there are now some 23 different programs such as the HB1, and HB2, visas) and illegal.
So, yes we have many problems in America as to the earnings of the worker. Doesn’t mean that the European model is better (around 40 of the worlds billionaires live in London). In Japan the difference between earnings of CEO’s v worker is about 14 times the average wage.
It’s true. They were right. You been bought, sold, and robbed by “the man”. Solution? Vastly lowered expectations will help, as well as a dislike of material things.
Richard Shortall said:
I agree with your comments Mr Cramer… were it not for unions American workers would not enjoy EVEN the lousy conditions and benefits they currently have – It astonishes me how middle and working class Americans are so ready to kow-tow to their upper class (rich) masters and blame their fellow workers for the “decline” of the US. The actions and thoughts of serfs. ”
How do we know what would have happened if there had never been a “union”?
How many times in the past 20 years have the unions been investigated for fraud, and/or violations of workers rights in use of members dues?
Currently, what is the benefit of a union?
Couldn’t be your ideology showing through, could it?
“And I’m not happy about being “lumped in” as a hijacker with the moron Swipies – for a start, I’m a much better writer, secondly I’m clearly not asd delusional and demented as he is and thirdly, I don’t call everyone who disagrees with me a liar!”
Actually, it is only in your mind that you think you are abetter writer. Occasionally using some “five dollar” word does not make you a better writer. Just shows you have a grammar gidget.
Now, I have suggested before that if you don’t want to be called a liar then don’t lie. However, your constant use of the word “moron”, “illiterate”, “gobshite”, etc. tend to outweigh any use of the word liar by me.
“I may be pedantic but there’s a qualitative difference between us ”
Yes there is. I’m actually capable of using facts to support my arguments. You are just a member of the collective body who relies on the ignorance of others, and lacking in critical thinking something no longer taught in public schools.
I’m with Mikek on this one
But the guy taking Swipes at everyone….. dude, you need help
yeah, we shouldn’t go to socialized medicine because the our doctors would have to get by on less. And if the foreign healthcare systems are so lousy how come we ranked 37th? and isn’t obesity epidemic part of US healthcare failure? And oh yeah, we should stop giving poor people food stamps coz foreigh poor people are much skinnier… yeah, look at those African poor people, they’re skinny man!
For the full text of what Bush2 said to Mary Mornin:
http://www.presidentialrhetoric.com/speeches/02.04.05.html
Hopefully this thread will not turn into a rerun of the Wyden Blog thread in the Wandering Eye. There was some extensive analysis and cross analysis that went on for a couple of weeks.
Health Care in this country is more about illness treatment than wellness maintenance. Obesity is one problem–and the causes are many. There are a lot of fat people who had PE in school, have never been on welfare, and who know the benefits of exercise and proper diet–but choose to do otherwise. Stress is another factor. Avoiding medical treatment because of the high cost until the condition is unavoidable is another. The list goes on…
The bottom line is that we do so poorly in this country at providing health care and treatment and yet we spend twice what the next country does.
Insurance gets more and more expensive every year–a Clear Choice group plan with moderate benefits for a young family of four is almost $11,000 per year. Is that affordable? It is the equivalent to the mortgage payment for a $150,000 house. How did insurance get so high?
The sad thing is the system will not change because of the lobbying efforts in Washington and the money being pumped into the campaign chests of the elected officials who actually have health benefits paid for by our tax dollars–through public and private providers.
Re: the minimum wage. There has to be something wrong with any economic system that needs a supply of labor to work for less than a living wage, especially when there are people at the other end of the economic spectrum who are making so much money they can afford to spend a million bucks on a birthday party for their wives – or some other outrageous luxury. There must also be something wrong with a society that believes it is okay for some people to be multi-billionaires while tens of millions of children live in poverty.
Stephen Cramer said:
For the full text of what Bush2 said to Mary Mornin:
http://www.presidentialrhetoric.com/speeches/02.04.05.html
Hopefully this thread will not turn into a rerun of the Wyden Blog thread in the Wandering Eye. There was some extensive analysis and cross analysis that went on for a couple of weeks.”
TY for showing the full speech. Obviously Bush was not denigrating the woman as some have suggested, and the discussion was about SS, not healthcare.
“Health Care in this country is more about illness treatment than wellness maintenance. Obesity is one problem–and the causes are many. There are a lot of fat people who had PE in school, have never been on welfare, and who know the benefits of exercise and proper diet–but choose to do otherwise. Stress is another factor. Avoiding medical treatment because of the high cost until the condition is unavoidable is another. The list goes on…”
For decades we have seen the reports on the eating habits of the Americfan people as compared to the habits of other countries, and the urging to eat more fruits, vegetables, fish, chicken, etc. We have seen the studies about how children are spending more time in front of the “boob tube”, or video games, rather then outside playing, or getting exercise. All to no avail as the increase in obesity shows.
To blame personal choices on the healthcare system is somewhat disengenuous. However, we live in a time when people are not to be held responsible for their personal choices. Some go to great extent to find excuses for ones wrong choices, and then to force the rest of society to pay for those choices.
I would agree that doctors could do with less of an income as could the lawyers who file the frivolous lawsuits against doctors, and others, thus driving up the cost of malpractice insurance, and the cost of health insurance period.
So, the question then becomes do we need a national healthacre system run by bureaucrats in Washington DC that have screwed up every program instituted by the Fed? Or, do we need a revamping of the system we now have in place?
10’s of thousands of foreigners come to this country, especially from Canada, each year for their healthcare. Doctors from all over the world are coming here to practice medicene.
American’s do go to other countries for some healthcare. However, these most often are experimental procedures not approved in the US, and most often do not work (Farrah Fawcett for example). Others are going to India where the costs are lower.
Just as another example, in the State of Oregon it has been mandated that the people pay for certain services even if they will never use them. To this end, a 60 year old woman is paying for pregnancy insurance. Why?
“The bottom line is that we do so poorly in this country at providing health care and treatment and yet we spend twice what the next country does.”
We spend twice as much on education too. And what is the result?
“Insurance gets more and more expensive every year–a Clear Choice group plan with moderate benefits for a young family of four is almost $11,000 per year. Is that affordable? It is the equivalent to the mortgage payment for a $150,000 house. How did insurance get so high?”
Clear Choice is a fine example of open greed. Take for example the medicare advantage plans. While Clear Choice charges well over $100 for their program, Secure Horizons has a plan that benefits one just as well, and has a %0.00 premium.
“The sad thing is the system will not change because of the lobbying efforts in Washington and the money being pumped into the campaign chests of the elected officials who actually have health benefits paid for by our tax dollars–through public and private providers.”
Part of the problem. The other is that we as a society have gotten to the point where we expect everyone else to pay for our personal choices.
I found it laughable when one Congress critter actually introduced a bill that would require those in government who now receive these excellent healthcare benefits to go on the plan they pass into law. It never made it out of committee.
This is somewhat misleading. NO IT ISN’T In the countries with socialized medicene the doctors, and other healthcare workers, earn approximately 1.2 of what American doctors earn. AND YET, THE US RANKS 37TH.
In the countries with socialized medicene the wait time for emergeancy services is about 5 times that of a US hospital. And then there is the wait for a transplant, etc. Also, the US system has a higher survival for cancer then any of the other countries. AND YET, THE US RANKS 37TH.
Then there was the life expectancy statement. The reason for the slip in life expectancy has nothing to do with the healthcare system. AND STILL, THE US RANKS 37TH. It has to do with the increase in obesity especially in women. In 1985 the obesity rate in the US waS 15%. Now it is over 30%, and the cost of treating the illness caused by obesity is close to that of tobacco use.
On the infant mortality issue, the US is the only country that counts infant deaths after birth from genetic defects that cause death within 24 hours, to SIDS, or SUID, in their mortality rate. Other countries only count the deaths at the time of birth. YOIU THINK THE WHO DOESN’T KNOW THIS… AND YOU FOUND IT OUT?
COST OF HEALTHCARE IN US – RANKS 1ST IN THE WORLD – QUALITY OF HEALTHCARE OUTCOMES RANKS 37TH. IT’S A SIMPLE ARGMUMENT. WHERE DOES ALL THAT MONEY GO?
1. as to Bush “denigrating the woman”. No one said he was. Where did yu get that?
We hear a lot of “libertarian-esque” rubbish on this site about “personal choice” and how people should pay for their own personal choices. Libertarians WANT everyone to have personal choice (freedom) – in reality people don’t have such freedom, they operate within constraints – but Libertarians (and their ilk) criticize them for not making the right choice anyway.
Do the mentally ill make “personal choices”?
Do abused children make “personal choices”?
Do the poor “choose” to be poor?
Do the almost 50 million Americans with no healthcare “choose” to have no healthcare?
Sure the obese go to stores and “choose” fattening foods but the available research shows that the worst foods are the cheapest (and the most govt supported too!). So do they “choose” to be obese? Is it a “free choice”? Or are they constrained by their ignorance, their poverty?
It is highly disingenuous to attack the poor and the obese (usually the same people) for making “the wrong choices” when they have no free choices…. vegetables, chicken, fish!!!!! For Christ’s sake man, what planet do you live on? The mother, if there is one, has two or three jobs on that minimum wage you detest so much. Don’t be such a nazi
But you’re right, the Congress and the Senate aren’t worthy of the American people… and the Supreme Court isn’t much better. So what’s the alternative?
Party Pooper said:
AND YET, THE US RANKS 37TH. ”
Well, again this is misleading. What you are referring to is the BS Michael Moore put out in his movie “Sicko”, and was based on a 2000 report. The 2008 report has the US at 28th.
http://www.americashealthrankings.org/2008/othernations.html
“AND YET, THE US RANKS 37TH.”
Well, tell that to the people who have to wait for 5 to 12 hours for emergeancy services. Tell that to the people who have to wait up to 3 years for a transplant if they don’t die first.
Now, I can get you many articles on why the ranking of the WHO is fallacious, and you could get them yourself if you did not hate America so bad. However, why not try this one for starters, and if you need more I will gladly get them for you.
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=9236
“YOIU THINK THE WHO DOESN’T KNOW THIS… AND YOU FOUND IT OUT?”
Just as you don’t care because it does not fit your ideology, so the WHO does not care.
“COST OF HEALTHCARE IN US – RANKS 1ST IN THE WORLD – QUALITY OF HEALTHCARE OUTCOMES RANKS 37TH. IT’S A SIMPLE ARGMUMENT. WHERE DOES ALL THAT MONEY GO?”
Well, a big chunk of it goes to TRIAL LAWYERS, AND THEIR PHONY LAWSUITS.
Then, about 20% of the federal money spent is lost to fraud. Some say it may be as high as 40% like in New York with its Medicaid program.
How about the illegals flooding the emergeancy rooms where the law says they have to be treated?
Now, I know you don’t want a rational, intelligent, discussion on the topic, however, you might want to consider this.
Texas instituted healthcare reform mainly in limiting damages in specific malpractice suits. Now hospitals are being built in counties that had no hospitals, and doctors are returning to the State.
Masschussets went to the single payer plan you want, and it is going bankrupt just as Wisconsin found out it would if it did so.
In the haelthcare bill that the House wants to pass there are three provisions of concern. The first would deny healthcare insurance to any illegal immigrant. However, there are two other provisions one of which allows for ALL members of a family to receive the healthcare insurance if ONE member of the family qualifies. Thus, if an illegal comes to the States, has a child, the child is now a citizen, qualifies for healthcare insurance, and thus so does the whole family.
Hopefully you can see why healthcare in the US is so expensive.
And yes, the WHO does use the financial costs as part of its assessment. So, it does matter if the socialized doctors receive 1/2 of what American doctors do.
“Put caps on obscenely high salaries by imposing a 99 percent tax over a certain decent amount.”
OK Al, so who exactly scripts the definitions and dollar figures of “obscenely high”, and “decent”. You? Me? Obama? Since you have clearly never taken a macroeconomics course, I will try to explain. Try to keep up. Placing a ceiling on the price of anything (milk, gasoline, health care providors, corporate executives) will reduce the available supply of that commodity. Such caps sap the market of economic incentive to produce an adequate supply of the commodity. Manufacturers of tangible commodities simply refuse to continue to make product at loss or diminished profit level. They go where the economic advantage is and make a more profitable product. With regard to human resources, as wage parity becomes more prevalent, there is less incentive for people to become highly trained professional specialists. All the time and money spent pursuing advanced training and degrees does not pay off. Quality of work and output levels decline as there is no economic advantage to working harder, smarter, or longer than the other guy.
“There was one known billionaire before Reagan and today it is close to 1,000รข “at whose expense???”
At nobody’s expense. These billionaires are the result of a quarter century of capital creation, from which every American at all levels of society are the benificiary. These are the people who start and run businesses that put people to work and bring new ideas to market.
I have never understood the irrational hatred “the little guy” (and trust me, I fall in that category) harbors against people who make substantially more than them. If you’re not happy with your current lot, improve it. If you’re not willing to be motivated enough to better yourself, why the hell should I care if you don’t make what you think you should.
Steerpike said:
1. as to Bush “denigrating the woman”. No one said he was. Where did yu get that?”
Read Shortall’s first post.
“Do the mentally ill make “personal choices”?”
Kind of an extreme example would you not say?
“Do abused children make “personal choices”?”
More extremism. BTW, do children period make personal choices?
“Do the poor “choose” to be poor?”
In many cases yes although not in all. E.G. When a person drops out of school knowing full well they will be poor that is their choice.
“Do the almost 50 million Americans with no healthcare “choose” to have no healthcare?”
Again you are misleading. No one in the country can be denied healthcare. The topic is healthcare insurance, and many do choose not to buy health insurance. Many are self insured; the young feel they won’t need it; illegals, which are included in the stats you mention, cannot legally buy it; others are without because they are in between jobs; and then there are the 14 million, or so, who already qualify yet for some reason have not applied for it.
The CBO says that there may be as few as 8.2 million who are not insured for other reasons although that may be as high as 16 million.
“Sure the obese go to stores and “choose” fattening foods but the available research shows that the worst foods are the cheapest (and the most govt supported too!). So do they “choose” to be obese? Is it a “free choice”? Or are they constrained by their ignorance, their poverty?”
I see. So, they are also constrained from exercising?
Now, the research does not show that cheap foods are the unhealthiest. What the research does show is that the obese choose foods that are unhealthy. Chicken, turkey, pollock, are healthy meats that are cheaper then 70% lean hamburger. Several cans of vegetables, or frozen vegetables, are cheaper then potato chips, or a box of macaroni, and cheese. Sugar free pudding is just as cheap as regular pudding. And the list goes on. Whole wheat bread is no more expensive then white bread.
It is not that the “bad” foods are cheaper, it is the shopping habits, and eating habits, that tend to one consuming “bad” food.
Try reading this article:
http://www.ers.usda.gov/AmberWaves/November08/Features/AffordHealthyDiet.htm
“It is highly disingenuous to attack the poor and the obese (usually the same people) for making “the wrong choices” when they have no free choices…. vegetables, chicken, fish!!!!! For Christ’s sake man, what planet do you live on? The mother, if there is one, has two or three jobs on that minimum wage you detest so much. Don’t be such a nazi”
The mother is most often on welfare, and food stamps. Few work three jobs, as the example given, which is why Bush praised her.
Maybe you should try not being such a putz.
“But you’re right, the Congress and the Senate aren’t worthy of the American people… and the Supreme Court isn’t much better. So what’s the alternative?”
Voting for people who are qualified, not just because they belong to a certain party, or are the incumbent.
And yet the US ranks 37th
even if it’s 28th…. hardly admirable is it for the nation that spends more than any other nation on healtcare…. something’s up, why don’t we all drop our strident ideologies and hatreds and look at the numbers.
And I’ve never seen Moore’s documentary Mr Swipies, was it good?
The debate seems to have been hijacked by Mr Swipies again: Ken Swipies has managed 3,600 words without calling anyone a liar or a “clone”. Well done Ken!!!
Richard Shortall’s word count is 898 (approximately 25% of Mr Swipies’ total) and he has managed not to lose his cool – well done Mr Shortall…. eat a snickers bar!
Most fo us seem to be in agreement (except Mr Jeggile, who seems to believe “we can all be billionaires if only we’d get off our lazy asses and get three BETTER jobs! Ha Ha, good one Mr Jegglie – is the weather nice in Narnia?) that the American worker is being “worked over” and “overworked”.
We are also in agreement that the healthcare system sucks – the “left” seems to think that the best way to fix it is to change it, and the right seems to think the best way to fix it is “more of the same” or something like that – it’s hard to tell, they’re a bit vague and tend to bring red herrings like Michael Moore in for no reason.
All in all a good debate.
Mr Jegglie – the rich don’t get rich by hard work, they change the law so they get richer faster. Now YOU try that, see how far you get.
Party Pooper said:
The debate seems to have been hijacked by Mr Swipies again: Ken Swipies has managed 3,600 words without calling anyone a liar or a “clone”. Well done Ken!!!”
Well, since you guys have decided to be somewhat more civil, why would I call you anything? It would apppear though that simply opposing your point of view is “highjacking” the thread. I also would like to know if you are just counting my words, or adding to that number the words of others which I c/p to the post. And, since it appears that I am the only “conservative” presenting an opposing point of view to all of you it would make sense that I would have more words.
“We are also in agreement that the healthcare system sucks – the “left” seems to think that the best way to fix it is to change it, and the right seems to think the best way to fix it is “more of the same” or something like that – it’s hard to tell, they’re a bit vague and tend to bring red herrings like Michael Moore in for no reason.”
The Michael Moore comment was not a “red herring” since it was he that made an issue of the “37th” ranking, and whoever used that number now obviously did not do their homework for 2008.
Now, while not all can be “billionaires” one must admit that there are a lot of lazy people living off the gov’t teat, a nd expecting more. That was the design of Obabma’s “spread the wealth” comment.
Now, we have to comment that the “right” has no alternatives. This is total BS promoted by the unethical “left”. The fact is that the “right” introduced its own version in May of this year, and the Democrats refuse to allow it to come up, or even to allow the Republicans to offer amendments.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124277551107536875.html
I would like to know if you have heard of the Healthy Americans Act introduced by Wyden (D), and Robert Bennett (R) and supported by several Republicans, in 2007? Max Baucus (D) chairman of the Finance Committee has said it will never come up for a vote, and labor unions are strongly opposed to it. However, the CBO has said that it is the only plan that is revenus neutral, and will show a profit after two years. You should check it out.
http://wyden.senate.gov/issues/Legislation/Healthy_Americans_Act.cfm
Simple definition of hijacking the post – kept simple for Mr Swipies: Taking uup three times as much space on the post as the next-most prolific contributor Shortall.
I knew you couldn’t resist it… now we’re unethical and use BS.
37tgh ranking came from World Health Organization rankings – Moore doesnt work for them.
Yes, there are a lot of lazy people living off the taxpayer’s teat and there are a lot of obese, lazy Americans … I have no argument there. However, the last 30 years has seen an obscene and never before seen concentration of the nation’s wealth in the top 2% richest. Something wrong there…. hmmmmmmm. That’s my “thinking leftie” noise hmmmmmmm, I do it a lot hmmmmmmmmm. Could something be rotten in the state of Denmark? Hmmmmm At least they rank about 5th in the world rankings in terms of QUALITY OF HEALTHCARE OUTCOMES and we’re 37th hmmmmmm, something not quite right there.
Party Pooper said:
Simple definition of hijacking the post – kept simple for Mr Swipies: Taking uup three times as much space on the post as the next-most prolific contributor Shortall.”
Would you answer the question? Are you counting just my words, or your words as in this post, too?
“I knew you couldn’t resist it… now we’re unethical and use BS.
37tgh ranking came from World Health Organization rankings – Moore doesnt work for them.”
Did you read the articles I suggested you read? We are not 37th. as you seem to want to believe. And that was from the WHO in 2008, not the 2000 figure as Moore wants everyone to believe.
Then too, you were the one that repe3ated the leftwing mantra of how the Republicans don’t have an alternative plan, and I gave you two of them. Guess you couldn’t take the time to read them.
“Yes, there are a lot of lazy people living off the taxpayer’s teat and there are a lot of obese, lazy Americans … I have no argument there. However, the last 30 years has seen an obscene and never before seen concentration of the nation’s wealth in the top 2% richest. Something wrong there…. hmmmmmmm.”
Won’t disagree there, however, I would not blame it on Conservatives. For example, over 60% of the farm aid monies go to the rich such as the Rockefellors, Sam Donaldson, etc., and the large corporate farms such as Monsanto, Cargill, ADM, etc.
Then you should look at how other federal programs enrich the wealthy under the guise of helping the poor.
“That’s my “thinking leftie” noise hmmmmmmm, I do it a lot hmmmmmmmmm. Could something be rotten in the state of Denmark? Hmmmmm At least they rank about 5th in the world rankings in terms of QUALITY OF HEALTHCARE OUTCOMES and we’re 37th hmmmmmm, something not quite right there.”
Denmark pays out 60% in taxes. Oregon pays out 56.7%. How come we in Oregon aren’t like Denmark, Hmmmmm.
You do know that the “quality” of the healthcare is based on more than one factor, right? Do you have any idea of how long you have to wait for a transplant, emergeancy care, etc., in Denmark? How about their cancer survival rate?
Maybe you want to use the model in France which is the most successful of the European models?
http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/jun2007/gb20070613_921562.htm
BTW, you do understand that a national health care program run by the government would end malpractice lawsuits, right? Today you cannot sue the VA for malpractice, or the military. And you cannot sue the federal government if it controls the health care system.
And yes, people like you do not use as many words as I do, however, you never give any facts, or examples, to back up your argument.
No one mentioned Republicans but you Mr. Swipies…. where did I mention Republicans, I’m talking about healthcare!!!?
I also did not blame obesity and laziness on the Conservatives!
“Denmark pays out 60% in taxes. Oregon pays out 56.7%. How come we in Oregon aren’t like Denmark, Hmmmm” YOU’RE MAKING MY CASE FOR ME Mr Swipies……. Oregon isn’t like Denmark…. wait for it…. because 1) then have Socialized Medicine and we have privatized insurers creaming off profits and making dolts of the American public and 2) because the Danes aren’t em, how could I put this… well they aren’t Americans!
“You do know that the “quality” of the healthcare is based on more than one factor, right? Do you have any idea of how long you have to wait for a transplant, emergeancy care, etc., in Denmark? How about their cancer survival rate?” DON’T NEED ‘EM… THE WHO COUNTED IT ALL UP FOR US … THE U.S. RANKS 37TH…
Maybe you want to use the model in France which is the most successful of the European models?”
US ranks 37th (in 2008 if you insist) and France ranked 1st… wow, those lousy Frenchies, they beat us at that too!
“And yes, people like you do not use as many words as I do, however, you never give any facts, or examples, to back up your argument” Never say never. Way back, there was ‘never’ a conservative who threatened to kill someone and one of the liberal ‘clones’ came up with Pat Robertson.
EXAMPLE OF FACT GIVEN TO BACK UP ARGUMENT BY PEOPLE “LIKE US”: US ranked 37th in the World according to WHO rankings. Actually, France ranked first!!!!!! Oh, la la, je suis fixed et il n’y a pas de big bill!!! Et vouz dites que le US rankez 37th! Sacre bleu, c’est n’est pas possible, le US est toutjours premier!!!
Steerpike said:
“And yes, people like you do not use as many words as I do, however, you never give any facts, or examples, to back up your argument” Never say never. Way back, there was ‘never’ a conservative who threatened to kill someone and one of the liberal ‘clones’ came up with Pat Robertson.”
Robertson never threatened to kill anyone. He stated that since Chavez was claiming the US was trying to assasinate him then maybe we should grant him his wish. Robertson later apologized for the comment something liberals never do.
“EXAMPLE OF FACT GIVEN TO BACK UP ARGUMENT BY PEOPLE “LIKE US”: US ranked 37th in the World according to WHO rankings. Actually, France ranked first!!!!!! Oh, la la, je suis fixed et il n’y a pas de big bill!!! Et vouz dites que le US rankez 37th! Sacre bleu, c’est n’est pas possible, le US est toutjours premier!!!”
AGAIN, the perfect example of why it is folly to even try to debate a topic with people who have been so badly brainwashed that they lack to ability to even reason in an honest, and factual manner.
I have proven several times that the 37th. figure you on the left love to tout so much is from 2000, and not 2008. However, in your foolishness you continue to ignore that simple reality.
Since you want to tout France so much, and I posted a link to an article about France which you obviously did not read, here is part of it:
“One reason the French system seems able to do it all is its practice of using price controls.
A national fee schedule determines reimbursement paid by the government and by most private insurers. Doctors can charge extra, and more than one-third do. But the low rates set by the national fee scheduleรข “typically less than $50 for a routine office visitรข “help keep salaries modest. French doctors on average earn just one-third the salary of their U.S. counterparts, says Paul Dutton, an associate professor of European history at Northern Arizona University and author of Differential Diagnoses, a comparison of the French and U.S. health systems.
Despite this, rising costs and an aging population make it a struggle for France to finance its system. On May 29, the government warned that health-care inflation this year is running ahead of projections, threatening to deepen an already worrisome $5.2 billion deficit. In Britain, the National Health Service presents a much grimmer picture. It has provided universal coverage for nearly 60 years and boasts benefits such as drug prescriptions that cost no more than $13 for a month’s supply.
Fewer Drugs Covered
Yet despite the government pouring $81 billion into the NHS over the last six years, access to treatment is spotty, and long waiting lists are the norm. In 2005, 41% of British patients waited four months or longer for elective surgery, compared with less than 10% in the U.S., according to London-based think tank Civitas. Limited resources also mean medical care varies widely depending on where you live. Access to life-extending new cancer drugs is especially constrained. As a result, Britain has one of the lowest five-year survival rates for cancer overall: 43% for men and 53% for women, vs. 53% and 71%, respectively, in France”
I guess that is the system you want.
I repeat:
“Did you read the articles I suggested you read? We are not 37th. as you seem to want to believe. And that was from the WHO in 2008, not the 2000 figure as Moore wants everyone to believe.”
You’re right Mr. Party Pooper, you didn’t mention Republicans by name. This is what you said in case your memory is as selective as your “facts”:
“the right seems to think the best way to fix it is “more of the same” or something like that – it’s hard to tell, they’re a bit vague”
I guess there are others on the “right” that aren’t Republicans. However, that is what prompted my reply:
“Then too, you were the one that repeated the leftwing mantra of how the Republicans don’t have an alternative plan, and I gave you two of them. Guess you couldn’t take the time to read them.”
Anyway, since it is obvious that you, and others, are so braindead, and lacking in the ability to think outside of the limited box you have made for yourself, this will be my last post.
If you had read some of the aticles I have posted for your enlightenment you woul dhave seen that Britain is going broke over the health care issue as is France; people cannot get the medications necessary; the cost of medications is higher in Britain under the government program then in the US; Canada is now seeking to allow private insurers into the system; British Columbia for years has allowed the construction of private clinics, and hospitals, with private insurance (which is against the law in Canada) because the State run system cannot handle all of the cases; and the list of ills goes on.
However, I know you are so much more “informed” then I, and your “intellect” is so much greater then that of mine (I see how you have rebutted each of my arguments with numerous citations, and facts ROFLMAO) that it is truely a waste of my time to try and even compete with your abilities.
So, I bid you adieu, and hope for your sake that you never get seriously sick if Obamacare goes through.
richard here, back from my summer “hobbies”
JC said this, amongst other things: “At the time, their corporate charter specified that no one could earn more than 10 times the earnings of the lowest paid worker. Whether or not you agree with that concept is irrelevant. They were not able to attract the level of talent they desired until they changed the charter. So much for equality” … this is just parroted propaganda… “attract the level of talent” … let’s think about that for a minute …. the “level of talent” was “attracted” by America’s auto manufacturers for years using big salaries and bonuses and look at what Detroit was producing! Boring crap.
The right “level of talent” was “attracted” by America’s banks and other financial institutions with obscene compensation packages (I’m sorry if we on the left don’t agree with the Right’s definition of “obscene” but there you have it) and look at what all their “talent” produced – a world wide melt-down. No, I’m not buying this “right talent” BS – wake up, you’re in the Matrix. They’re making fools of you and laughing all the way to the Hamptons in an Aston Martin DB7.
And as for you Union Bashers (I’m not in a Union btw)… were it not for unions you wouldn’t have vacation, sick days, minimum wage protection, work safety and environmental standards…. get over yourselves. And who was more likely to want to export US jobs overseas, Unions or that “level of talent” you tighty righties love so much?
Wake up, everyone’s laughing at you
However, I know you are so much more “informed” then I, and your “intellect” is so much greater then that of mine (I see how you have rebutted each of my arguments with numerous citations, and facts ROFLMAO) that it is truely a waste of my time to try and even compete with your abilities.
Only accurate post you’ve ever made!!
So the crafty Frenchies cooked the books eh!!! Well that’s first place accounted for…now, what tricks did the Italians employ to get second place?
Only 35 weak excuses to go Swipies!
“I guess that is the system you want”
Yet another non sequitur
“except Mr Jeggile, who seems to believe “we can all be billionaires if only we’d get off our lazy asses and get three BETTER jobs! Ha Ha, good one Mr Jegglie – is the weather nice in Narnia?”
Pooper, nowhere in my post did I say such a thing. Billionaires no, millionaires absolutely.
“Mr Jegglie – the rich don’t get rich by hard work, they change the law so they get richer faster. Now YOU try that, see how far you get.”
That has to be a joke. Because if you believe that, you are possibly the most misinformed whiner in the history of liberalism. Millionaire surveys consistently rank hard work, determination, and persistence as top drivers of financial success. That you don’t seem to understand this should be cause for inward reflection rather than scorn of those who have earned their wealth.
Clarification of research interpretation:
“Millionaire surveys consistently rank hard work, determination, and persistence as top drivers of financial success”…
One cannot infer from this that “hard work, determination and persistence” actually lead to financial success.
Why not?: Because these surveys provide no measurement of any of these three characteristics and so information is only collected on “millionaires'” SELF-ASSESSMENT of their “hard work… etc”. In other words, we do not know after reading these studies whether or not so called “millionaires” are harder workers, more persistent or more determined.
Secondly: we do not know whether or not these three characteristics UNIQUELY propel one towards wealth… poor people could also be “hard working, persistent and determined” but do not become wealthy because of some unidentified factor or factors.
One has to interpret research carefully.
Steerpike,
Whatever you say, buddy. You’re probably right. If you’re poor, there is nothing to be done about it. Don’t improve your skills. Don’t work harder/better/longer than the next guy so you can take his job. Typical left wing hog wash. The only key point missing is the liberal grand finale, “Government will take care of you”
I’ll take my chances on following the path of existing millionaires, rather than a bunch of whiny, finger pointing liberals wallowing in their own self pity.
You should consider taking the path of learning to interpret researchproperly… you’ll make a fool of yourself less often
There you go again Jiggles, responding to things only the voices in your head said and not responding to the actual points made… I think the level of these arguments is too high for you.
“Whatever you say, buddy. TUT TUT SARCASM You’re probably right. TRUE, BUT MORE SARCASM If you’re poor, there is nothing to be done about it. Don’t improve your skills. Don’t work harder/better/longer than the next guy so you can take his job. NO ONE SAID THIS – ALL IN YOUR HEAD, BUDDY Typical left wing hog wash CAN’T BE… NO LEFT WINGER ACTUALLY SAID THIS… THUS, IT IS ACTUALLY “RIGHT WING HOG WASH” The only key point missing is the liberal grand finale, “Government will take care of you” NO ONE SAID THIS EITHER
PLEASE RESPOND TO THE ACTUAL POINTS MADE