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  1. im not going to get into this debate deeply, not really sure there is one. absolutely correct on the bird issue. you are for some reason forgetting that bird feeders are unnaturally baiting wild birds in close proximity to where they can be killed, by anything or one. this is done for your pleasure, the birds do not need your free food buffet.
    ‘bigger’ picture is that the reason for dog laws is pretty obvious. people want to make no distinction between rotweillers and pugs. one can be booted like a football and could not dig a hole in your yard much bigger than a softball. but i cannot remember how many times when i lived in florida that a roving pack of killer dogs (yes, dogs roam in packs if they are feral often times, they are pack animals) disassemble a child who was playing on their front lawn. i am talking about ripping arms and legs off and tearing their face off until the kid was dead.
    so enough with the pervasive,increasing threat of taxoplasmosis (really, are you kidding?)
    if you think pet cats should not free roam that is understandable, but comparing a grouping of feral cats to the same with wild dogs is just absurd.
    oh, did i forget to mention that i had a portion of my face layed wide open by a pet basset hound when i was a kid. he was ‘sweet old prince’ and had never bitten anyone. i was just helping him up on the couch, he turned, snapped once and was able to inflict 3 large slices that required many, many stitches. not looking for sympathy, just stating facts from a first hand experience.

  2. Sigh… more overhyped cat nonsense.

    I realize Jim Anderson and H. Bruce Miller feel strongly about this issue but that’s hardly an excuse for ignoring the legitimate and rational arguments raised by critics of the Audubon/ABC campaign against outdoor cats. It requires a pretty strong personal filter or sheer dishonesty to blanket characterize the TNR advocates and other critics as “cat fanatics”.

    I’ve already addressed many of the weaknesses of the Audubon/ABC allegations in detail in previous responses to Jim Anderson’s article from Volume 11 Issue 29 entitled “Cats, Cats and More Cats” (Oct 2007). Unfortunately, the article and its commentary appear to have disappeared from the TSWeekly web site. That’s a shame. I suppose it’s probably too much to hope that TSWeekly staff has the technical chops to recover this lost thread so maybe one of these days I’ll reconstruct it from my notes. For now, I’ll just address one of the allegations…

    The risk to humans from toxoplasmosis, roundworms, hookworms, ringworm, and rabies is a bit overhyped. Toxoplasmosis is a real concern and therefore worth spending a little time on. I’ll cover the others in the following posts.

    About toxoplasmosis…

    There is roughly a 10% chance that you are already infected with toxoplasmosis but this varies greatly with geography, with upwards of 90% incidence in some areas. Most otherwise healthy people don’t realize they are infected since, like many of the infections we live with, our immune system forces it into dormancy. Once infected, your immune systems pretty effectively protects you from reinfection. Occasionally, some experience flu-like symptoms for a couple of weeks. In very rare cases, eye infection, vision loss, and some other severe symptoms can occur. However the risks for severe symptoms are greater for the immunocompromised and the pregnant so prevention is still important.

    It’s true that cats can host the parasite, shedding oocysts for a couple of weeks after ingesting an infected rodent. The oocysts can be viable for several months so they’re hardy little buggers. But cats usually develop immunity after the initial infection and so shed oocysts only once in their lifetime. It’s also true that outdoor cats are more likely than indoor cats to host the parasite but, again, only once in their lifetime. Oddly, it’s kittens, both indoor and outdoor, that are the most common hosts.

    The accidental ingestion of cat feces from litter boxes or garden beds are a potential vector for transmission to humans but about half the cases are actually caught from uncooked or undercooked meat. Probably the most effective preventative measure is just to not eat undercooked meat and to be diligent about cleaning all surfaces, utensils, and hands that come in contact with raw and undercooked meat. For the pregnant and the immunocompromised, extra measures like avoiding direct contact with likely sources of cat feces may be prudent. Pregnant women whose immune responses are already primed from a prior infection have little to fear.

    I don’t believe anyone seriously proposes the complete elimination of the toxoplasmosis protozoa in the wild but it’s worth noting that the human infection rates appear to be declining sharply (despite the increasing rate of cat ownership). In 2000, the best estimate of babies born with congenital toxoplasmosis was about 1 per 10,000 births. Considering the downward trend in the overall infection rates since then, it’s reasonable to project that the rate is now at least half that figure. To get some idea of the scale, in Bend this works out to roughly 1 case per 20 years.

    To summarize, if you’re pregnant (and haven’t already been exposed) or immunocompromised (such as suffering from AIDS or taking immunosuppressive drugs), and you have a cat, a reasonable case may be made that you should keep your cat indoors. For the rest of us… not so much.

  3. Now, about roundworms…

    Cat and dog roundworms can potentially cause toxocariasis in humans. Again this is normally through ingestion of the eggs. Epidemiological studies actually point to the presence of dogs, particularly puppies, in a household, as a principal risk factor. While the cat version can also cause toxocariasis, it does so much less frequently. This is thought to be partly because cats usually cover their feces so the eggs are not spread around as much by flies and the environment. A raccoon version of this critter (which dogs can also pick up) is also recognized as a cause of human disease.

    Technically, outdoor cats have a higher risk of infection but, for most cats, roundworm infections are relatively benign. Regular deworming is a cheap and common practice so as long as you take care of your cat it’s usually not really a serious risk. More of a risk to kittens and very old cats but, again, easily treated.

    Again, outdoor cats, feral or otherwise, are not a major vector for human transmission and, as far as I know, no one is seriously proposing that keeping cats indoors will make much of an impact on the overall incidence of toxocariasis.

  4. Now, about hookworms…

    Cat and dog hookworms can potentially cause “cutaneous larva migrans” in humans. This is very mild but itchy skin infection (usually on the feet). The human version of this parasite is a bit more aggressive, migrating all the way to the gut and sucking up huge amounts of blood, but the cat/dog versions can’t really penetrate that far into human skin (but still a good reason to maintain segregated dog beaches). All versions of this parasite need warmth and moisture and so can be found mostly in tropical and subtropical climates. High desert residents probably have little to fear from this critter.

    In any case, in climates where this is a concern, the primary vector for human transmission (of the non-human version) again is dogs, not cats. Hot humid weather and bare feet are the main risk factors. For the cat, the treatment again is cheap and common. It’s usually not serious but regular deworming takes care of it.

  5. Now, about ringworm…

    Ringworm is a fungal infection most common in tropical and subtropical climates and during warm weather in temperate climates. Less than 4% of all human cases of ringworm are caused by the same fungus that infects cats and dogs. Humans are much more likely to get infected from other humans via playgrounds, gyms and showers. Since fungi are everywhere, it’s almost impossible to prevent exposure and since the results are usually minor and treatable, most of us usually don’t try (other than avoiding contact with the obviously infected). However, for immunocompromised individuals, it probably makes sense to take a few extra precautions.

    Communities with large numbers of cats in close proximity are at a higher risk of infection so professional breeders and catteries also tend to take extra precautions. Healthy adult cats are generally immune. Young cats less than one year old, immunocompromised cats, and certain long-haired breeds (Persians and Himalayans) are the primary victims. The infection usually clears up on it’s own but since treatment can sometimes be a pain in the arse, a reasonable argument can be made that these high risk cats should be kept indoors if there is a high probability of contact with ringworm-infected free-ranging cats. The argument is less persuasive in the case of low-risk healthy adult cats, especially with our dry climate and relatively low density free-range populations.

  6. And finally, about rabies…

    In the US, rabies infections in humans are rare and getting rarer every year. Three reported cases in 2006 and one case in 2007. In Oregon, there were only 12 reported cases of rabies in 2007; all cases were in bats. Two of these bat cases were in Deschutes County but there hasn’t been a single reported case since 2007. In the entire state, there have been only 4 reported cases in cats in the last 20 years; the last one was 10 years ago in Douglas County. There hasn’t a single reported case of cat rabies in Deschutes County for at least 50 years, perhaps ever (the state data only goes back to 1960).

    Obviously, the risk of rabies to our cats, feral and otherwise, in Bend is pretty damn low. I pointed this out already in a correction to one of Anderson’s previous articles but apparently HBM didn’t get the memo ๐Ÿ™‚

  7. Ric: I remember our endless exchange of posts over Jim Anderson’s column on a similar topic and I am not going to get on the merry-go-round with you again this time. However, I will post one observation and a question.

    Observation: You seem to have a great deal of information at your fingertips and a great deal of time to write posts

    Question: Are you a professional cats’ rights lobbyist, or affiliated with Alley Cat Allies or some similar group?

  8. “i cannot remember how many times when i lived in florida that a roving pack of killer dogs (yes, dogs roam in packs if they are feral often times, they are pack animals) disassemble a child who was playing on their front lawn. i am talking about ripping arms and legs off and tearing their face off until the kid was dead.”

    And this happened FREQUENTLY in Florida — so frequently that you can’t remember how many times it happened? God, no wonder you moved!

    “so enough with the pervasive,increasing threat of taxoplasmosis (really, are you kidding?)”

    I didn’t say it was pervasive and increasing — I merely said the disease can be transmitted by cat feces (e.g., in your kid’s sandbox). You’re exaggerating my statements in an attempt to make them look ridiculous.

    “if you think pet cats should not free roam that is understandable, but comparing a grouping of feral cats to the same with wild dogs is just absurd.”

    Again, I made no such comparison. Uncontrolled dogs can be dangerous (although most aren’t), which is one of the reasons we have leash laws. Uncontrolled cats pose different problems, and we need to deal with them. I compared dogs and cats simply to point out that the cat fanatics’ claim that cats “need to be free” could apply with equal logic to dogs, but few would seriously advance it as an argument against licensing and leash laws.

  9. Really? Is this all you’ve got? A bald-faced ad hominem argument?

    HBM, if you search your memory, you might recall my fact-correcting posts on a few other unrelated topics. No, I am not a professional lobbyist, affiliated with ACA, or any other similar group. In fact, before Anderson’s post back in 2007, I wasn’t even terribly interested in this issue. But moving here from a town with a fairly good progressive alternative weekly, I was saddened and appalled at the sloppy fact checking and gratuitous snarkiness coming from the only progressive paper in town. Sometimes I’m just annoyed enough to do the fact checking for you.

    No, I don’t have a great deal of time to write posts. Isn’t that a bit of a condescending way to deal with competent writers who actually know how to do research? I’ll let you in on a little secret. It turns out that fact-checking and writing well doesn’t really take that long.

  10. “Is this all you’ve got? A bald-faced ad hominem argument?

    It’s not an ad hominem argument; you have a right to be a professional advocate, and being one does not make your arguments invalid. It was a serious question, and it occurred to me because last time all your talking points seemed to come straight from the ACA and other cats’ rights advocacy group sites.

    Basically, I think you’re just a guy who likes to argue and show off his erudition and vocabulary. I remember how you quibbled, nitpicked and hairsplitted every argument that was produced on the other side during that last discussion and wrote interminable posts — so interminable that they had to be split into several parts — and then expected detailed rebuttals to all your points. I’m not going to get drawn into that game with you again. So if you want to write another 100,000 words or so on the subject, knock yourself out.

  11. “you are for some reason forgetting that bird feeders are unnaturally baiting wild birds in close proximity to where they can be killed, by anything or one. this is done for your pleasure, the birds do not need your free food buffet.”

    So the people who feed birds, and not the cat owners who let their cats roam free to kill birds, are to blame for cats killing birds. I’ve heard some bizarre arguments on this issue, but this one takes the cake.

    Cats will kill birds wherever they find them, near feeders or not.

    And I’m not so sure the birds don’t need the “free food buffet,” especially since we’ve diminished their natural habitat (and food sources) so much.

  12. Okay, so instead of another interminable wrangle about the significance of cats as bird predators, let’s go at this from another angle: What are the advantages vs. the disadvantages of what I propose? I’ll start by listing what I see as the advantages:

    1. Reducing wild bird predation.

    2. Reducing the stray cat population.

    3. Making it easier to identify stray cats and return them to their owners (and thus making it less likely they’ll end up being euthanized at the Humane Society shelter).

    4. Reducing the amount of feline byproducts in people’s yards, public parks, etc. (We can debate the health risks of these byproducts, but I don’t think anybody would claim it’s pleasant to have them around.)

    5. Keeping pet cats healthier (because of less exposure to disease and injury by cars, other cats, wild animals, dogs, humans).

    Would anybody on the other side like to list the disadvantages?

  13. Hmm… sounds like we hit a nerve.

    > It’s not an ad hominem argument

    Oh please. You were caught with your fact-checking pants down with the exaggerated threats to human health. A principled person would just cop to the error and move on. Coyly phrasing an ad hominem attack as a question isn’t fooling anyone.

    > Basically, I think you’re just a
    > guy who likes to argue and show
    > off his erudition and vocabulary.

    And I suppose this too is not an ad hominem argument? The lobbyist insuation doesn’t work so let’s try anti-intellectualism instead? Hey everyone, don’t look at the man with his pants down, let’s sneer at the other man with the big words instead. Sigh.

    > I remember how you quibbled, nitpicked
    > and hairsplitted every argument that
    > was produced on the other side during
    > that last discussion and wrote interminable
    > posts — so interminable that they had
    > to be split into several parts — and
    > then expected detailed rebuttals to all
    > your points.

    This is a pretty unfair characterization but I suppose you’re free to mischaracterize it at will since we can no longer actually point to the thread online anymore. Pretty convenient that.

    For the peanut gallery, what really happened is that HBM tried to do that typical tactic of unloading a laundry list of citations copied from the anti-TNR clique’s talking points and basically dared me to refute them. So what’s got HBM’s shorts in a bunch is the fact that I actually met his challenge and politely explained the weaknesses of every single one of them. Yes, the response was long and split into multiple posts but that’s pretty much what HBM’s laundry list (and the old finicky comment software) required. Apparently in HBM’s book, actually responding with the real facts is just quibbling, nitpicking, and hairsplitting.

  14. >
    > What are the advantages vs. the disadvantages of what I propose?
    >

    To clarify, your proposal seems to be actually three different proposals.

    1) License all pet cats
    2) Require pet cats to be kept indoors or otherwise restrained when outdoors
    3) Kill all the rest of the cats.

    Well okay then, so let’s look at your proposed list of advantages…

    (broken into multiple posts again… if this bothers you, feel free to ignore the next few posts ๐Ÿ™‚

  15. >
    > 1. Reducing wild bird predation.
    >

    Unless you’re going to take the emotional position that *any* bird predation by cats is an evil act that must be prevented, the important question is whether the predation is harmful to the long term health of the population. Except possibly for a few sensitive areas, the evidence is not convincing that cat predation has a significant impact on most wild bird populations.

    The biggest impacts are actually those thousands of individual human activities lumped together under “habitat destruction”. According to one estimate, there are close to 8,000 species threatened with extinction, 99% directly due to human activities causing habitat destruction. More than a 1,000 of those are bird species, of which at least half are predicted to be extinct in 50 years. Human activities have already led to the extinction of 10% of the world’s bird species.

    It’s humans, not cats, that are responsible for the major threats to bird life today. More to the point, as far as I know, there is no evidence that *any* species in Deschutes County is threatened significantly by cat predation.

  16. >
    > 2. Reducing the stray cat population.
    >

    A recent study published in the Journal of the American Veterinary Association (April 15, 2009, Vol. 234, No. 8) found that 80% of pet cats in the US are already neutered. Other studies claim that the stray/feral cat population in the US is about equal to the household cat population (but probably less in our climate). This suggests that pet cats do not contribute significantly to the stray/feral cat population and that the stray/feral population is mostly self-sustaining.

    Eliminating the stray/feral population via wholesale slaughter is a pipedream. Stray and feral cats have been with us for nearly 10,000 years. Like it or not, they are an adaptive species filling an ecological niche created by human civilization that is unlikely to disappear just because we start killing more of them. Millions of stray cats are killed every year in the US, as they have been for over a century, yet their populations continue to thrive. Unless you plan to dump a ridiculously huge amount of resources into the effort, any decrease in the cat population typically just eases the environmental pressures on the rest, causing a rise in births to quickly fill in the gap.

    As far as I can tell, except in some isolated geographies like islands and such, wholesale cat slaughter has never been shown to work. On the other hand, despite the claims in that article, the TNR folks seem to have some real evidence that their way may actually be more effective at reducing the stray/feral cat population.

  17. > 3. Making it easier to identify stray cats
    > and return them to their owners (and thus
    > making it less likely they’ll end up being
    > euthanized at the Humane Society shelter).

    This argument is fair. Of course, this doesn’t require adopting an indoor-only cat regulation. Implanting microchips is also a one time procedure and national database registration is free. It’s hard to justify an annual registration requirement for something with so little overhead.

  18. > 4. Reducing the amount of feline byproducts
    > in people’s yards, public parks, etc.

    I suppose this might be an advantage. Not a very strong one though. After all, we seem to deal with bird droppings and all sorts of other natural “byproducts” in our yards without getting all squeamish. You do realize I hope that the dirt in your backyard is probably teaming with life and their icky byproducts? I had a thing about snail trails when I was a kid; I got over it ๐Ÿ™‚

    In any case, keeping pet cats indoors isn’t going to stop stray/feral cats from doing their thing.

  19. > 5. Keeping pet cats healthier (because of less
    > exposure to disease and injury by cars, other
    > cats, wild animals, dogs, humans).

    Interestingly, this notion actually seems to be shared by many on both sides of the TNR debate. It’s very common to hear claims that outdoor cats have 2-3 year lifespans. But based on anecdotal observations, I suspect this claim is as unfounded as the popular belief that humans use less than 10% of their brain or that Saddam Hussein was involved with 9/11. If you recall, this was the claim that first drew me into this discussion a couple years ago. I’ve yet to find much reliable data comparing the mortality of indoor versus outdoor cats.

    Perhaps a case can be made that in high density, high auto traffic areas, fewer cats will get injured by cars if kept indoors. But Bend is not really a high density, high auto traffic area. Is injury by cars truly a significant risk in our area?

    Perhaps a case can be made that indoor cats are protected from attacks by other animals. But again, is this a significant risk? I could make the same argument to keep my child permanently indoors. But this risk, to my child at least, does not appear significant enough to justify being so overprotective. I suppose the risk to my cats might be higher but again is there any evidence that the risk is significant enough?

    And finally, a case can be made that indoor cats are better protected from disease. But unfortunately again, the data seems a bit mixed. It may make sense to make sure our outdoor cats are regularly dewormed and vaccinated but we should be doing this in any case. As long as this is done, it seems that this should take care of most of the risk.

    However, feline leukemia virus (FeLV) may be a concern. I’ve read claims that outdoor cats are more likely to contract FeLV but the data I’ve seen seems to show that the prevalence level is the same in stray/feral colonies as it is in pet cat households (roughly 1-2%). Perhaps the risk is considered greater for outdoor cats because they are presumed to be in contact with more cats? In any case, the incidence of infection seems to be largely related to the population density of cats, with higher rates in catteries and multi-cat households.

    Transmission of FeLV apparently requires fairly sustained contact, with saliva being the primary carrier. A bite from an infected cat could do it but it’s thought that mutual grooming and shared litter trays and food dishes are the main vectors. Young kittens are much more susceptible than adults. Because FeLV is a fragile virus and because of age resistance, transmission between adults usually requires prolonged intimate contact. I wonder how much prolonged intimate contact do neutered pet cats really engage in with foreign cats. There is a FeLV vaccine but apparently it’s not foolproof. I need to do more research on this one, especially on the local incidence rate. Any local vets care to chime in?

  20. “Unless you’re going to take the emotional position that *any* bird predation by cats is an evil act that must be prevented”

    Nice strawman you’ve erected there, Ric. Who said it was “evil”? It’s what cats do. It’s their nature. I don’t blame them. But, yes, I maintain that ANY bird predation except for game species, and especially predation of species that are threatened or endangered, should be discouraged.

    “The biggest impacts are actually those thousands of individual human activities lumped together under “habitat destruction”.

    I couldn’t agree more. So why decrease the birds’ chances of survival even further by setting cats free to kill them? You used this argument before — it was irrelevant then and still is.

    “A recent study published in the Journal of the American Veterinary Association (April 15, 2009, Vol. 234, No. 8) found that 80% of pet cats in the US are already neutered.”

    Another strawman. Did I say anything about neutering? Neutered cats kill birds just the same as unneutered ones do.

    “This suggests that pet cats do not contribute significantly to the stray/feral cat population”

    Do you have any idea how rapidly cats reproduce? You seem to be acknowledging in a backhanded sort of way that stray/feral cats are a problem. No, we probably can’t eradicate it. But why add to it?

    “After all, we seem to deal with bird droppings and all sorts of other natural “byproducts” in our yards without getting all squeamish.”

    Okay, next time I find cat turds in my yard I’ll invite you to come over and clean them up. My dog isn’t allowed to crap in your yard — why should your cat be allowed to crap in mine?

  21. > Nice strawman you’ve erected there, Ric.
    > Who said it was “evil”?

    Huh? That’s just the qualifier, not the argument. But in any case, it’s not a strawman if that is really your position. Alright, if you like, let’s switch out “evil” with “bad” or “undesirable”. The argument still holds.

    Perhaps an analogy might help. These days we are rightly concerned about CO2 emissions. But no one is insisting that CO2 emissions are *always* undesirable. No, that would be silly. Rational people are concerned about *excessive* CO2 emissions.

    Look, I understand that empathic people would want to defend the life of the creatures they love. If I see a cat trying to snag some bird or lizard, my instinctual response is to save the victim. But deep down I know that, most of the time, this is an irrational response. Birds and lizards die by the millions every day. Death is a part of nature. Yes, as an individual act, I’ll still save that bird but I’m rational enough to avoid advocating governmental policies based on an irrational empathic response. Let’s save our environmental activism for the things that really matter.

    > So why decrease the birds’ chances of survival even
    > further by setting cats free to kill them?

    Again, the issue is one of significance. Do you know how much wildlife is killed by motor vehicles? Some US estimates claim over a hundred million casualties per year! (note, cats are a very tiny portion of the road kill) In 1991, over half a million deer got hit by cars. Do we ban cars? No. Is this because we’re so dependent on cars? I doubt it. I suspect the primary reason is that the death toll is just not significant enough. The death toll may be something worth monitoring but until it causes a significant impact on the wildlife population, we have other much more significant problems on which to focus our conservation efforts.

    > Another strawman. Did I say anything about neutering?
    > Neutered cats kill birds just the same as unneutered ones do

    [slaps palm to head] Please read more carefully. It should have been clear that the neutering and population data was just the supporting evidence for the following statement about whether keeping cats indoors would have any significant effect on the stray/feral cat population.

    > Do you have any idea how rapidly cats reproduce?

    Do you? There is another myth floating around about cat reproduction but I’m not really sure what you’re asserting here so I’ll let this one slide. Again, the point is that the data tells us that household cats probably have very little impact, if any, on the maintenance of the stray/feral population.

    > Okay, next time I find cat turds in my yard I’ll
    > invite you to come over and clean them up. My dog
    > isn’t allowed to crap in your yard — why should
    > your cat be allowed to crap in mine?

    Why do you persist on equating cats and dogs? They are different animals with different issues. We don’t let dogs roam because wild dogs can truly be a threat to humans. We don’t let dogs poop indiscriminately because dog shit is often huge, wet, smelly and visible. Dog shit gets deposited anywhere, gets on your shoes, and attracts flies. You won’t find cat shit on your lawn. Cat shit is small, often dry, less smelly and rarely visible. Cats prefer to bury their shit, usually in sand or dirt, and tend to choose the same spot for any repeat business. The two problems are not really comparable.

    If you truly are having a persistent problem with cat droppings, there are several practical strategies you can adopt that are proven to work. One that I’ve heard of that works very well and costs almost nothing is just to set up a small box of sand somewhere near your yard. Cats often prefer dry sand over dirt and mulch and the problem will be contained. If the source is a neighbor’s cat, try working out a plan with your neighbor to slowly move your box until your neighbor can start taking responsibility for maintaining it. Heck, I may even volunteer to help you work on this if you promise to be nice ๐Ÿ™‚

  22. “Birds and lizards die by the millions every day. Death is a part of nature.”

    But cats are not part of nature, in the sense that they are not part of the birds’ natural environment. They are an introduced predator.

    “Let’s save our environmental activism for the things that really matter.”

    First, I believe the destruction of wild bird populations DOES really matter. Second, why does it have to be an either-or deal? Why does paying attention to, say, global warming mean we can’t also be concerned about the loss of wild bird species?

    “Do you know how much wildlife is killed by motor vehicles?”

    Irrelevant. Cars are a necessity in our present economic and social system. Letting cats roam at large is not a necessity.

    “Again, the point is that the data tells us that household cats probably have very little impact, if any, on the maintenance of the stray/feral population.”

    What “data”? Can you provide a reference to any reputable study from a credible, unbiased source that proves this rather preposterous claim?

    Where do feral cats come from? They are strays or descendants of strays. Where do stray cats come from? They are former pet cats.

    “One that I’ve heard of that works very well and costs almost nothing is just to set up a small box of sand somewhere near your yard. Cats often prefer dry sand over dirt and mulch and the problem will be contained. If the source is a neighbor’s cat, try working out a plan with your neighbor to slowly move your box until your neighbor can start taking responsibility for maintaining it.”

    Pardon me, but this is bullshit (or catshit). Why should I have to go to the trouble of maintaining and cleaning up a litterbox on my property because my neighbor is too lazy and/or indifferent to control his cat? It’s his responsibility to take care of his cat’s messes, not mine.

    BTW, I invited people to post responses pointing out the disadvantages of what I proposed. You posted some rather lame attempts to rebut what I claimed were the advantages, but said nothing about disadvantages. Does that mean you couldn’t think of any?

    In conclusion, this will be my last response on this topic. The discussion has grown repetitive and tedious. Also, I find your smug, condescending way of expressing yourself extremely irritating. To put it more crudely, you are a pain in the ass, and I don’t need another pain in the ass in my life. So goodbye.

  23. > But cats are not part of nature, in the sense
    > that they are not part of the birds’ natural
    > environment. They are an introduced predator.

    So are we. The list of introduced species is a long one. Conservationists make a distinction between merely “introduced” species and “invasive” species. The invasive label is reserved for those species that have a real adverse impact on the natural habitat. As I acknowledged many many times in the past, there may be places where cats can legitimately be promoted to “invasive” status but, as far as I’ve been able to determine, Deschutes County is not one of those places.

    > First, I believe the destruction of wild bird
    > populations DOES really matter. Second, why does
    > it have to be an either-or deal? Why does paying
    > attention to, say, global warming mean we can’t
    > also be concerned about the loss of wild bird species?

    Cart before the horse. You first need to establish that local cats are causing the “destruction of wild bird populations”. Reasonable people can be concerned about the global problems of wild bird populations, including areas where cat predation may actually be a problem, and STILL not be concerned about areas where cats predation is insignificant.

  24. > “Again, the point is that the data tells us that
    > household cats probably have very little impact,
    > if any, on the maintenance of the stray/feral population.”
    > What “data”? Can you provide a reference to any reputable
    > study from a credible, unbiased source that proves this
    > rather preposterous claim?

    Sigh, I just did. Okay, once more, with more detail…

    (1) Chu K, Anderson WM, Rieser MY. Population Characteristics and Neuter Status of Cats Living in Households in the United States. J Am Vet Med Assoc 2009: 234:1023-1030.

    (2) Lord LK. Attitudes toward and perceptions of free-roaming cats among individuals living in Ohio. J Am Vet Med Assoc 2008; 232:1159-1167.

    (3) Levy JK, Crawford PC. Human Strategies for Controlling Feral Cat Populations, J Am Vet Med Assoc 2004; 225:1254-1360.

    The first study establishes how many breeding members there are in the household population (about 20%). The second study establishes that about 60% of household cats are kept indoors (similar percentages can be found in other studies). The third study estimates the stray/feral population to be about equal to the household population (Note: I’m not confident about the methodology used to arrive at this last figure but it’s probably a good starting point for this argument).

    To maintain the stray/feral population, you need to have either a significant number of breeding members or a significant rate of new immigrants.

    First let’s look at the breeding question. Only 20% of the household population are potential breeders. About half of these are probably females (pregnant household cats tend to deposit their litters right back into the household so they usually don’t contribute to the feral population). About 60% of the remainder are kept indoors (note: we’re assuming these three percentages are independent which may not be true) so we’re talking about maybe 4% that can possibly contribute to the feral population by mating with other strays and ferals. It’s probably fair to say that probably a much smaller fraction of this small group will actually have the opportunity to mate with a stray/feral cat. In the meantime, there is a much higher number of breeders and much greater opportunity solely within the stray/feral population itself.

    Now let’s look at the immigration question. This is mostly just a logical extrapolation from the above data. Even if we include the neutered into the very small potential pool of lost cats that might contribute to the stray/feral population, you can’t get away from the fact that the stray/feral population can clearly maintain it’s own population level without any additional immigration at all. Even if we kill all household cats (no, I’m not suggesting you are advocating this), the stray/feral population would continue merrily on without a blip. There are also some studies (shall I cite these also?) that show colonies managed successfully by TNR folks get smaller and smaller as they continue their TNR efforts — this would be unlikely if immigration was a significant factor.

  25. > Pardon me, but this is bullshit (or catshit). Why should
    > I have to go to the trouble of maintaining and cleaning up
    > a litterbox on my property because my neighbor is too lazy
    > and/or indifferent to control his cat? It’s his responsibility
    > to take care of his cat’s messes, not mine.

    Well, this isn’t very neighborly. Have you even tried to work out a plan with your neighbor to cooperatively address this issue? Or are you just content to grumble impotently about people who don’t share your notions about cats? I don’t know your neighbor but I can tell you that if one of my neighbors came to me, politely asking for my help to address a real problem with one of my cats, I would try to work out a solution that works for both of us. Cat owners, by and large, are not any more irresponsible than anyone else, they just have a different mindset about cats than you. If this is a real problem, and not one just invented for rhetorical flourish, why don’t you try? Like I said, if you promise to be nice, I might even be willing to help.

    At this point, I suspect you’re just making this up. I hardly ever see the byproducts of household cats outdoors and I’ve done a fair amount of gardening. I had issues with skunks and opossums but not with cats. Unwanted cat elimination is very easy to control.

    > BTW, I invited people to post responses pointing out the
    > disadvantages of what I proposed. You posted some rather
    > lame attempts to rebut what I claimed were the advantages,
    > but said nothing about disadvantages. Does that mean you
    > couldn’t think of any?

    Sorry if I don’t play by your rules but I thought my counter argument was obvious. You came up with five so-called advantages. I replied with my arguments why each one was either incorrect or weak.

    You are the one proposing a new legal burden for cat owners and the expenditure of public funds on maintaining a annual registration scheme, enforcement of indoor-only laws, and the killing of stray/feral cats. The burden is on you to make the convincing argument. You haven’t yet.

    > In conclusion, this will be my last response on this topic.
    > The discussion has grown repetitive and tedious. Also, I
    > find your smug, condescending way of expressing yourself
    > extremely irritating. To put it more crudely, you are a
    > pain in the ass, and I don’t need another pain in the ass
    > in my life. So goodbye.

    Suit yourself. When I started this dialog way back when, I believe I was fairly polite and gentle. You were the one that started with the insults and the condescending attitude. If my tone these days annoys you, well all I can say is that you reap what you sow.

  26. “When I started this dialog way back when, I believe I was fairly polite and gentle.”

    Examples of your politeness and gentility:

    “Sigh… more overhyped cat nonsense.” — The first sentence from your first post on this thread.

    “It requires a pretty strong personal filter or sheer dishonesty to blanket characterize the TNR advocates and other critics as “cat fanatics”.” — The third sentence from the same post.

    “I suppose it’s probably too much to hope that TSWeekly staff has the technical chops to recover this lost thread …” — further down in the same post.

    This was before anyone had said anything to you to warrant such snotty remarks.

    Also I never made any blanket claim that all critics are “cat fanatics.” But I believe you are one.

    As well as being intellectually dishonest, a pompous ass and a bloody bore.

    Goodbye, again. But I know you’ll be back because you can’t resist having the last word. In your mind that will prove you “won.”

  27. Also some interesting data and arguments here: http://birdchaser.blogspot.com/2008/03/cats-kill-over-1-billion-birds-each.html

    Unless scientists could find a way to continuously monitor the activities of every cat on the planet, I don’t believe ANY amount of data would convince cat fanatics that their beloved kitties are a significant threat to wild bird populations — and maybe not even that. However, the scientific consensus seems clear.

  28. Sorry, I keep forgetting that I need to be super explicit in our debates as you seem intent on misinterpreting everything.

    “Way back when” did not refer to two days ago, but rather two years ago. Every time I’ve pointed out one of your errors, you seem constitutionally unable to accept it gracefully so I’ve given up on gentle.

    And yes, you did use the term “cat fanatics” and although in this article you didn’t explicitly say *all* critics were cat fanatics, that was the impression you deliberately left with additional gems like “idiocy”, “many cat owners will pitch a fit”, “heretical”, and “completely irrational”. And this isn’t even considering the diatribes from previous threads.

    For the record, I did not say you made a blanket claim about “all” critics. But I would still have been justified if I did, as without qualification or any fair treatment of the other side, it seems clear you were leading your readers to make that extrapolation themselves.

    But, in any case, looking back at the beginning of *this* thread, I agree that I came in too aggressively. Not because I think you deserve it but rather because most of your readers are probably unaware of the prior history.

    And finally, the comment about the technical chops of the tsweekly staff was not directed at you. In previous discussions with tsweekly staff it seemed clear that no one there really had the technical expertise to fix problems with the website. Has something changed there since the recent redesign? If so, I apologize for that remark, it was just an expression of frustration on losing the old thread combined with previous frustrations with trying to fix anything on your site. Do you guys have a real technical person on staff now?

  29. “But I know you’ll be back because you can’t resist having the last word.”

    Did I call it or did I call it? LMAO!!!

  30. >
    > Did I call it or did I call it? LMAO!!!
    >

    Seriously, are you twelve?

    Did you really think I was going to be deterred by amateur reverse psychology?

  31. > If anyone besides me and Ric is still following this
    > thread (doubtful) and is interested in a summary of
    > the research indicating that free-roaming cats are
    > significant predators of wild birds, with citations,
    > you can find it here: http://www.abcbirds.org/abcpro

    This sort of looks like where HBM got his last list of citations that sparked a detailed rebuttal on that old lost thread. Again, it’s a shame that thread is gone… HBM hasn’t offered any solutions to that so I suspect it’s gone for good.

    I suppose I could dig out my notes and reconstruct the analysis but this far down this thread I seriously doubt anyone but HBM and I are still hanging on.

    If anyone out there is still interested in the response, just let me know and I’ll try to make the time. Otherwise, I guess I’ll save it for the next go around ๐Ÿ˜‰

  32. “This sort of looks like where HBM got his last list of citations”

    Actually, it isn’t.

    I’ve noticed that the anti-cat control people don’t produce any scientific studies of their own; they simply try to nitpick the many studies that show cats are significant bird predators. It’s a lot like the global warming argument. On second thought, no; the global warming deniers DO have some scientific evidence that goes their way and a few scientists who agree with them.

    “Did you really think I was going to be deterred by amateur reverse psychology?”

    “Reverse psychology”? No, I wasn’t trying to deter you from commenting. I just knew you were going to need to have the last word. And I was right. I’ve seen you in action before.

    “I suppose I could dig out my notes and reconstruct the analysis”

    Uh, please, don’t bother.

  33. OTOH this is a typical specimen of the emotion-heavy and almost completely fact-free “argument” we get from the every-cat-is-sacred crowd: http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html/predation_studies_reviewed.html

    Notice the author states that “This topic has become a battleground of competing studies and experts,” giving the impression that there is an equal or near-equal weight of scientific opinion on both sides. But she cites no studies at all in support of her own views; instead she tries to raise doubts about the validity of the many studies indicating cats are significant predators of birds and other small wildlife. Most of the attempts to discredit these studiesare based on pure conjecture; for example: “Studies of urban cats are most likely not applicable to cats that live in a suburban or rural environment. In studies that are not performed face-to-face, there is no way to verify that the respondent even has a cat. Owner bias also plays a large role (Hartwell, 1997). For those who do own cats, the way they think of their cat could distort their response. As an example, someone who keeps a cat as a “mouser” may be more willing to report or over-report predation than someone who thinks of their cat as a well-tended (and well-fed) housecat.” Or this: “There is no way to prove that the prey brought home was actually killed by the cat. Cats, as opportunistic feeders, will feed on carrion (already-dead animals) as well as those they killed themselves, so predation rates may be over-reported.” (To her credit, though, she adds this: “Often, a cat will consume its' prey at the site of the kill, so predation rates may be under-reported.”)

    And then there’s this, which is a simple falsehood: “As cats are opportunistic feeders, providing them with a readily available food source as a part of a TNR program will reduce any effect they have on their traditional prey species.” Even the most well-fed cats will hunt; it’s an instinctive behavior. (I see plenty of tubby felines skulking around my feeders.)

  34. > OTOH this is a typical specimen of the emotion-heavy and almost
    > completely fact-free “argument” we get from the every-cat-is-sacred
    > crowd: http://www.straypetadvocacy.or…iewed.html

    Really? You read this article as “emotion-heavy”? I pored over this several times and couldn’t find any evidence of emotion at all. Are you perhaps just projecting your own emotions?

    > Notice the author states that “This topic has become a battleground
    > of competing studies and experts,” giving the impression that there
    > is an equal or near-equal weight of scientific opinion on both sides.

    I guess we could debate our “impressions” but what Dr. O’Keefe actually wrote is correct. It has become a battleground of competing studies and experts. And the following sentence is also accurate, “A study supporting any stance can be found, and are often cited and quoted without seriously analyzing the actual study” (although “any stance” may be slipping a little into hyperbole).

    > But she cites no studies at all in support of her own views

    That doesn’t appear to be true. I haven’t looked up the citations yet but the paper contains 18 citations, of which roughly half look to be intended as supporting her argument. The other half look mostly like citations to the studies being reviewed.

    > …instead she tries to raise doubts about the validity of the
    > many studies indicating cats are significant predators of birds
    > and other small wildlife.

    Umm… the title of this page is “Predation Studies Reviewed” and you’re criticizing the fact that all she does in the article is critique predation studies? That’s an odd complaint.

    > Most of the attempts to discredit these studies are based
    > on pure conjecture; for example…

    Actually, several of the concerns may be valid. It’s true that some are weak but you’re playing an unfair game here; You’ve quoted these six concerns out of context. The first five came from a section discussing potential problems in methodology. The first four of these were introduced by the follow sentence…

    >> Many potential problems exist within one time owner-reported
    >> rates of predation.

    She then goes on to list some *potential* problems. Only one of your cherry-picked examples seems questionable in context (my comments on each in brackets)…

    >> Studies of urban cats are most likely not applicable to cats
    >> that live in a suburban or rural environment
    >> [Agreed, this statement seems questionable]
    >>
    >> In studies that are not performed face-to-face, there is no way
    >> to verify that the respondent even has a cat
    >> [This statement is true and a potential source of error but there
    >> are some techniques to minimize this error. Whether this is a
    >> real potential depends on the study]
    >>
    >> Owner bias also plays a large role (Hartwell, 1997)
    >> [Not conjecture, although again this potential needs to be
    >> evaluated per study. Follow the supporting reference]
    >>
    >> For those who do own cats, the way they think of their cat
    >> could distort their response. As an example, someone who
    >> keeps a cat as a “mouser” may be more willing to report or
    >> over-report predation than someone who thinks of their cat
    >> as a well-tended (and well-fed) housecat.
    >> [Again a potential bias which needs to be evaluated per study]

    Similarly, the fifth example you quoted was introduced as follows…

    >> Long-term follow up studies are much more robust in many ways.
    >> … However, there are still drawbacks…

    I’m not sure why you believe the following example of a potential problem is “pure conjecture”…

    >> There is no way to prove that the prey brought home was actually
    >> killed by the cat. Cats, as opportunistic feeders, will feed on
    >> carrion (already-dead animals) as well as those they killed
    >> themselves, so predation rates may be over-reported.

    This is actually one of her strongest arguments (and one I also stated two years ago). Cats are indeed opportunistic feeders. Cat scavenging behavior is well known. This is one of the most serious concerns related to many predation studies; how much of the reported “kill” was actually scavenged carrion or a bird that was already at death’s door when a cat came by? Huge numbers of birds die naturally each year; where do their bodies end up?

    However, the last example you plucked out is indeed troublesome…

    >> As cats are opportunistic feeders, providing them with a readily
    >> available food source as a part of a TNR program will reduce any
    >> effect they have on their traditional prey species

    Ick. Agreed, this statement definitely requires support to be taken seriously.

    Personally, I think this article is a bit too light on detail for my taste but I guess it was meant only as a summary and not a detailed critique. In any case, despite some problems, this article is neither “emotion-heavy” nor “fact-free”.

  35. > “This sort of looks like where HBM got his last list of citations”
    > Actually, it isn’t.

    I don’t believe you. I dare you to find that lost thread and prove it ๐Ÿ˜‰

    > I’ve noticed that the anti-cat control people don’t produce any scientific
    > studies of their own; they simply try to nitpick the many studies that show
    > cats are significant bird predators. It’s a lot like the global warming
    > argument. On second thought, no; the global warming deniers DO have some
    > scientific evidence that goes their way and a few scientists who agree
    > with them.

    This isn’t true. I’ve seen several positive studies on the efficacy of TNR programs.

    But in any case, it’s pretty telling that you see this as opposing camps producing “their own” studies. If any of that is happening, on either side, then of course we need to carefully look at the results of such studies with a critical eye toward confirmation bias.

    By the way, who are these “anti-cat control people” you are referring to? It seems to me that most of the main TNR advocates actually agree with you that the outdoor/stray/feral cat population should be controlled. You guys mostly just disagree on the mechanism of control. They want to reduce feral colonies via a sustained spay/neuter effort. You want to kill the cats.

    Most TNR advocates appear to be also in favor of keeping pet cats indoors. As far as I can tell, I’m in a rather small minority that is still skeptical of the arguments for this bit.

    Frankly, I’m also not that squeamish about killing nuisance animals but I would rather avoid it if I can and the TNR strategy does seems to work better. In truly sensitive areas where cats are a true menace and whose geography actually makes this a possible solution, I can accept the need for a kill policy. But neither of these conditions exist in Deschutes County so a kill policy here would just be simply ineffective and inhumane.

  36. “But neither of these conditions exist in Deschutes County so a kill policy here would just be simply ineffective and inhumane.”

    Why inhumane? The cats would be captured and humanely euthanized. Is that more inhumane than letting them survive in a half-starved, disease-ridden condition? I’ve seen some of the cats that come in from these feral “colonies” — they don’t look too prosperous.

    BTW if we were talking about rat colonies instead of cat colonies there wouldn’t be a second’s hesitation about killing them off by any means necessary, much less feeding them and practicing TNR. But because people think cats are cute and cuddly, the idea of killing any of them is considered unspeakably horrible.

  37. >
    > Why inhumane?
    >

    It’s inhumane because the conditions haven’t been met. If they are not a significant threat to local wildlife, then a kill policy is gratuitous slaughter. If the kill policy has no hope of working, while an alternative no-kill policy has been demonstrated to work, then again, it’s just gratuitous slaughter.

    > if we were talking about rat colonies instead of cat colonies there
    > wouldn’t be a second’s hesitation about killing them

    Granted, there is a bit of a sliding scale with which most of us apply our notions of humane treatment. The notion of humane treatment follows from our empathic response. Yes, I feel more empathy for a cat than I do a rat. Just as I feel more empathy for a person than I do a rat (or a cat). But that doesn’t mean killing a rat (or a cockroach, or an ant, or a flea) is equivalent to killing a cat (or a person). That’s known as a false equivalency fallacy.

  38. >
    > Also some interesting data and arguments here: http://birdchaser
    >

    Yes, it is interesting. Especially interesting how he managed to come up with an estimate of annual predation that is almost an order of magnitude higher than even the official bird groups appear to believe. If his estimate of 1.7 billion is accurate, then we may indeed have reason to be concerned.

    The ABC people give a much lower figure of “hundreds of millions”, which is also pretty much what all the other official advocates for non-TNR cat control tend to quote. The cat advocates, of course, dispute the accuracy of this figure, raising some legitimate concerns about the studies on which it is based.

    In any case, it’s often hard to get a perspective on large nationwide totals like these. Let’s try to see if we can get some ballpark perspective…

    The total wild bird population in the US is estimated to be about 6 billion (1). It’s unclear how much of this includes birds that are actually vulnerable to cat predation but, since smaller birds tend to be much more numerous than the bigger ones, it seems fair to assume that most of this 6 billion is potentially vulnerable.

    Mortality and birth rates vary greatly for different birds but small birds tend to have both high mortalities and high birth rates (which makes sense of course). A typical small bird annual mortality in the wild is about 0.5 (see note in cite 2 below). If we assume that the 6 billion is mostly small birds, then the natural mortality gives us roughly 3 billion dead birds each year.

    Since ABC didn’t specify, I’m going to assume “hundreds of millions” is their shorthand for about 200 million (if it was much higher, I’m guessing they wouldn’t have been shy to quote it more precisely). That means that according to ABC’s figure, cat predation is roughly 7% of the natural death toll.

    For perspective, human deaths from accidents in the US were 4.1% of the total in 2000. Now, 7% of the natural mortality rate may not be catastrophic but it’s almost twice the human accidental death rate so maybe it’s significant enough to warrant concern. However, if the underlying estimate drops much lower then any legitimate concern starts to get vanishingly small (except again, in certain sensitive habitats… that’s part of the difficultly of extracting real meaning with these nationwide numbers). So, much of the difference in opinion in this issue seems to hinge on how much faith you have in the ABC predation estimate.

    Again, the other side has their own take on the predation estimates. Not all their criticisms are justified but some are. There are plenty of iffy arguments from the advocates on both sides.

    (1) Gaston KJ, Blackburn TM. How many birds are there? Biodiversity and Conservation (1997) 6:615-625.

    (2) Sherry TW, Holmes RT. Demographic Modeling of Migratory Bird Populations (From Strategies for Bird Conservation: The Partners in Flight Planning Process 1995. Cornell Lab of Ornithology. birds.cornell.edu/pifcapemay). [note: an adult mortality estimate of .5 and a juvenile mortality of .25 is cited here twice. Turns out it’s pretty hard to measure this so there might be a significant error here. See paper for more discussion.]

  39. In my opinion feral cats are vermin — no less so than excessive populations of rats, pigeons or starlings. It has nothing to do with whether I consider one species more lovable than another. It has to do with environmental impacts and public health risks. And cat-lover propaganda notwithstanding, TNR does NOT work, as evidenced by the ever-increasing number of feral cats.

    But since it’s obvious that no evidence ever can be produced that will convince you cats (tame or feral) are a significant threat to wildlife or a significant problem in any way, this is a pointless discussion.

  40. >
    > However, the scientific consensus seems clear.
    >

    Consensus on what precisely? You’ve made several different claims. Some may arguably be supported by a consensus in some scientific communities, others don’t appear to be, and some are definitely not. This really points to the core difficulty in this conversation and the reason why this thread is so long. You keep popping around to different claims and never seriously defend any of them before shifting to a new argument, while dropping little ad hominem turds along the way. It’s like a game of whack-a-mole with a seriously incontinent mole.

    I appreciate your respect for scientific consensus but that’s no excuse for suspending all critical thought. Critically reviewing claims (even the popular ones) is what real scientists do all the time. Claims from studies published in respected peer-reviewed journals are theoretically more reliable but it’s definitely no guarantee of infallibility. The reason we even have scientific journals is so that we have actual data to critique. That’s the way science is supposed to work.

    You make the comparison to Global Climate Change but the two fields aren’t nearly comparable. The body of reliable data supporting the climate change consensus is much more huge than that for cat predation. From my reading so far, the climate change data also appears much more rigorously peer reviewed.

  41. >
    > public health risks…
    >

    There you go again. Perhaps you forgot but let’s summarize those public health risks you listed earlier, shall we?

    1) toxoplasmosis… Yes, this is a potential problem, if you’re pregnant (and not already immune) or immunocompromised but at least half of all cases are due to improper handling of raw meat. Although the rate of infection is very low and getting lower every year, vulnerable people probably should avoid handling kitty litter and digging into gardens. The rest of us have very little to fear.

    2) roundworms… Cats are not a major vector to humans. Studies point to dogs instead, particularly puppies, in a household as the principal risk factor. Properly cared for household cats should not pose a health risk to humans.

    3) hookworms… Causes minor, easily treated skin infection in humans. Cats are not a major vector to humans. Dogs again are the main culprit. Properly cared for household cats should not pose a health risk to humans. A potential problem only in tropical and subtropical climates; highly unlikely to be caught in Deschutes County.

    4) ringworm… Not a worm, but a minor fungal infection most common in tropical and subtropical climates and during warm weather in temperate climates; much less common in our dry climate. Humans are much more likely to get infected from other humans. Probably impossible to prevent exposure. Although not common, humans can potentially get it from cats. More of a concern with high density cat situations. Young cats less than one year old, immunocompromised cats, and certain long-haired breeds (Persians and Himalayans) are the primary victims. Healthy adult cats are generally immune.

    5) rabies… There hasn’t been a single reported case of cat rabies in Deschutes County for at least 50 years, perhaps ever.

    Unless you’ve got something else to add to this list, it’s pretty obvious that in Deschutes County, the public health risk from cats, feral or otherwise, is not terribly high.

    >
    > TNR does NOT work, as evidenced by the ever-increasing number of feral cats
    >

    Fascinating. By far, the most popular feral cat management policy in the U.S. is a kill policy. TNR is in it’s infancy and, although increasing, has only been adopted by a small number of communities. And yet somehow the “ever-increasing number of feral cats” is evidence that TNR does not work? That’s an odd conclusion.

  42. Ric

    ‘it seems fair to assume’ ‘If we assume’ ‘I’m going to assume’ ‘I’m guessing’ No kidding?

    ‘Claims from studies published in respected peer-reviewed journals are theoretically more reliable but it’s definitely no guarantee of infallibility.’ But, if it walks like a duck and sounds like a duck and looks like a duck, chances are…

    ‘Properly cared for household cats should not pose a health risk to humans.’ So you were discussing feral cats…

    ‘Taxoplasmosis:…this is a potential problem, if you’re pregnant (and not already immune) or immunocompromised ….. vulnerable people probably should avoid handling kitty litter and digging into gardens. The rest of us have very little to fear.’ Because my garden belongs to your cat or some feral cat, I must avoid it? Keep your cat indoors and eliminate the feral population and I will have NOTHING to fear from those sources.

    The arguments have come full circle. What was stated at the beginning has been stated at the end. Same song as last season–even the tune remains the same.

  43. “However, the scientific consensus seems clear.”
    >
    “Consensus on what precisely?”

    That cats are significant predators of wild birds. Don’t be deliberately obtuse.

    “By far, the most popular feral cat management policy in the U.S. is a kill policy.”

    Wisely so.

    “TNR is in it’s infancy and, although increasing, has only been adopted by a small number of communities.”

    Including Bend, in spite of which local feral cat colonies (such as the one on the COCC campus) keep increasing. Ted Williams, in the article cited above, also talks about feral cat colonies in Hawaii that keep increasing despite TNR campaigns. It’s impossible to trap and neuter the cats fast enough to keep the population under control — especially because new stray or abandoned cats keep entering the population.

    There’s some interesting data here (http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.2004.225.1399?cookieSet=1&journalCode=javma) about reproductive rates in feral cat colonies. Excerpt: “Cats produced a mean of 1.4 litters/y, with a median of 3 kittens/litter (range, 1 to 6). Overall, 127 of 169 (75%) kittens died or disappeared before 6 months of age. Trauma was the most common cause of death.”

    This says two things to me: 1. Cats reproduce rapidly. 2. The life of a feral cat is not a happy one (75% “infant mortality”).

    Can you point to ANY scientific evidence that a TNR program has succeeded in eliminating or reducing a feral cat population ANYWHERE? I’m talking about solid scientific evidence, not conjecture or wishful thinking on the part of cat lovers.

  44. hey bruce, have you ever admitted you are not correct on everything, all the time?
    i know of one person in my entire neighborhood in core downtown bend who has has issues with my cat. i know every person in my cats ‘territory’. actually, they all like him, except for one, who puts rat poison in his backyard for any stray animal who is unfortunate enough to detour through his piece of the rock.
    my cat has a bell on his neck on a quick release collar. ever since that bell went on his neck he has not brought home a single bird. this is a fact. he used to.
    really, you seem like someone who is just very argumentative in general. did you not pass your bar exam and live the life of a wannabe trial attorney. i like healthy, respectful debate likely more than the next guy, but you really just seem kind of obnoxious.
    and really, you have to be kidding with this obvious personal issue with cats that you are attaching issues to. i totally agree with you that the killing of wild birds by cats is a problem. i also believe just as strongly that feeding of any wild animals intentionally is wrong. this includes bird feeders if cats existed or not. and as far as bird feeders go, it is easy to position a bird feeder so that a cat cannot get to the birds if you really need one.
    your hatred of feral cats is unnatural and it is transparent to anyone but you it seems. i suspect you know that already, but it just gives you a great excuse to argue… and argue……… and argue. and argue.
    and if you are having serious issues with wild cat feces you are in a very small club. i wonder if you feel that feral dogs should meet the same fate as feral cats, or if that ‘vermin’ perspective is saved for an animal you clearly have no love for. no matter what you say, we all konw its true.
    get a more productive hobby that typing all day long.
    and ric, stop giving this moron fodder. maybe he will go back to his porn.
    sheesh. you are just creepy dude.

  45. > ‘it seems fair to assume’ ‘If we assume’ ‘I’m going to assume’
    > ‘I’m guessing’ No kidding?

    Pulling qualifiers out of context is cheesy to say the least. What is your point? That I don’t overstate my case like you do?

    Here’s a hint. Anyone advocating for (or against) a policy based on scientific grounds who doesn’t use qualifiers is probably lying to you, or that very least exaggerating. Science is rarely definitive and absolute. Honest scientists always qualify.

    > ‘Claims from studies published in respected peer-reviewed journals
    > are theoretically more reliable but it’s definitely no guarantee of
    > infallibility.’ But, if it walks like a duck and sounds like a duck
    > and looks like a duck, chances are…

    ??? Again, what is your point?

    > ‘Properly cared for household cats should not pose a health risk
    > to humans.’ So you were discussing feral cats…

    No, I was not discussing feral cats. I see I used this sentence with both roundworms and hookworms. I’ve already pointed out that, in both cases, cats are not significant vectors for human infection, dogs are. In the case of hookworm, the parasite is also unlikely to even survive outside in our dry high desert climate.

    > ‘Taxoplasmosis…’
    > Because my garden belongs to your cat or some feral cat, I must avoid it?
    > Keep your cat indoors and eliminate the feral population and I will have
    > NOTHING to fear from those sources.

    Actually, I’m guessing you already have NOTHING to fear from “those sources”. I assume you aren’t pregnant or immunocompromised.

    In any case, I’ve already acknowledged that this is a human health risk. My point is that you keep seriously overstating your case. Serious cases of toxoplasmosis are rare. Those suffering from AIDs should be taking the appropriate precautions against infections for a lot more reasons than just the possibility of taxoplasmosis. For the pregnant who are not already exposed (and thereby immune), a rough calculation gives us a congenital infection rate in Bend of about 1 case per 20 years, of which half would be due to improper handling of raw meat. And this rate is dropping fast.

    So again, the health risk from toxoplasmosis is very low (and in your case, probably infinitesimally low). Now, I suspect the next response is going to be something like: “It doesn’t matter if the risk is low; Any risk is unacceptable.” If you actually believe this, then may I suggest you look up the risk of driving to work or any one of a million other things that we do every day that present much greater health risks.

    Again, the point is not that there is ZERO risk but that you’re exaggerating the risks and overstating your case. The health risks argument is weak. You would do better to stick with the predation argument (which at least has the benefit of some scary numbers and who doesn’t root for Tweety over Sylvester) and the nuisance argument (after all, animals pooping outside does have the ick factor working for you).

  46. > “TNR is in it’s infancy and, although increasing, has only been
    > adopted by a small number of communities.”
    > Including Bend, in spite of which local feral cat colonies (such
    > as the one on the COCC campus) keep increasing.

    No, Bend has a feral cat kill policy. TNR has not been adopted by any of the local animal control authorities. There is an independent group that provides spay/neuter services and promotes TNR but it’s not clear how well-funded they are nor how many colonies, if any, they help maintain.

    In any case, I’ve seen maybe two obviously stray cats since I’ve moved to Bend. And four outdoor cats in my neighborhood whose ownership is unknown but appear to be clean, healthy and well-feed so I assume belong to one of my neighbors. I’m not sure what to make of your claim that the local feral population is growing (although I wouldn’t be surprised since cat-kill policies haven’t worked elsewhere either). Has anyone come up with any real surveys of the local feral cat population? I wonder if looking at the local shelter’s euthanasia rates might show any trends (I couldn’t find any numbers on their web site).

    > Ted Williams, in the article cited above, also talks about
    > feral cat colonies in Hawaii…

    I’m afraid I haven’t read anything about TNR programs in Hawaii so I can’t really say if Mr. Williams criticisms are accurate or fair. But I will say that Hawaii is probably a special case. Most of the threatened and endangered bird species in the US are in Hawaii. The geography is constrained and the bird populations low enough that habitat loss, disease, rats, pigs and cats are all together taking a heavy toll. I haven’t cranked the numbers for Hawaii but I wouldn’t surprised if even low levels of cat predation could make devastating impacts.

    That’s not necessarily an argument for cat kills but it may be an argument for taking some aggressive actions to reduce the feral cat population quickly. It’s possible that even a well-funded TNR program wouldn’t be fast enough, in which case an *effective* kill policy might be justified. Islands are one of the few places where kill policies have actually worked, although I’m not sure if it’s ever worked yet on islands as big as the Hawaiians.

    > This says two things to me: 1. Cats reproduce rapidly.
    > 2. The life of a feral cat is not a happy one (75% “infant mortality”).

    Sorry, don’t have time right now to look up that study but, off the top of head, nothing about those two conclusions raise any flags to me.

    Yes, cats can reproduce rapidly… an argument why TNR has a better chance than cat-kills. I came across another study earlier which claimed to demonstrate that unmanaged cat colonies tend to show populations going up and leveling off (presumably reaching a carrying capacity limit) and sometimes crashing as disease wipes out most of the colony but then rebounding quickly to the same capacity limit. Reproductive rates and infant mortality apparently can vary greatly depending on whether the colony is already at the local capacity limit.

    By the way, small bird infant mortality is also apparently around 75% (I misstated this in a previous post, mixing up the mortality and survival rate). Life for wild animals can be tough.

  47. > Can you point to ANY scientific evidence that a TNR program has succeeded
    > in eliminating or reducing a feral cat population ANYWHERE?

    Will any of these do?

    Mendes-de-Almeida F, et al. The impact of hysterectomy in an urban colony of domestic cats. International Journal of Applied Research in Veterinary Medicine 2006, 4:134-141.
    [Female feral cats in a colony at Rio de Janeiro were sterilized, resulting in a stable cat population and a decreasing trend after four years]

    Natoli E, et al. Management of Feral Domestic Cats in the Urban Environment of Rome (Italy). Preventative Veterinary Medicine 2006, 77:180-185.
    [A study of a very large number of TNR maintained colonies in Rome demonstrating a decrease in population in those colonies, although a high rate of abandoned intact cats in that area is apparently a local problem]

    Stoskopf M, Nutter F. Analyzing approaches to feral cat management – one size does not fit all. Journal of American Veterinary Medical Association 2004, 225:1361-1364.
    [After two years, six sterilized feral cat colonies decreased in size an average of 36% while three unsterilized control colonies increased in size an average of 47%.]

    Levy JK, Gale DW, Gale LA. Evaluation of the effect of a long-term trap-neuter-return and adoption program on a free-roaming cat population. Journal of American Veterinary Medical Association 2003, 222:42-46.
    [A study of a TNR program on a Florida college state campus over 11 years. At end of study, the population had decreased by 66%. This one was odd as the first census wasn’t completed until 5 years into the program so the actual drop since the start of the program was quite a bit more than 66% — one reviewer described it as an 86% decline based on a total 155 cats being handled but it isn’t clear to me whether all 155 were present at the beginning of the program]

    Hughes KL, Slater MR. Implementation of a Feral Cat Management Program on a University Campus. Journal of Applied Animal Welfare Science 2002, 5(1):15-28.
    [A two year report on a TNR program at Texas A&M University. After two years, 158 cats were trapped, 32 adopted, and the population was stabilized with no more litters or nursing mothers observed after the second year. No more litters will of course mean the colony will likely decrease through attrition]

    Hughes KL, Slater MR, Haller L. The effects of implementing a feral cat spay/neuter program in a Florida county animal control service. Journal of Applied Animal Welfare Science 2002, 5:285-298.
    [A study of a six year TNR program in Orange County, Florida. This one was not directly a study of the efficacy of TNR in reducing population, although you could maybe extrapolate a stabilized population based on the impound rate, despite the human population increase during the 6 year study. The more interesting finding in this study was the significant savings of TNR when compared to the previous cost of trap and euthanize. Just thought I would throw this in as getting more bang for your public dollar is all part of the practical animal control equation]

  48. “Yes, cats can reproduce rapidly… an argument why TNR has a better chance than cat-kills.”

    Sorry, I don’t follow your logic. Neither dead cats nor neutered cats can breed.

    Re your studies: Okay, it appears that in some instances TNR can stabilize or reduce the size of feral cat colonies, although I would still like to see data comparing the efficacy of TNR and T&E (trap and euthanize) programs.

    Also, neutered or not, a feral cat still will kill birds and other small wildlife.

  49. Thanks for that link, Stephen. Ric will be able to keep himself amused for several days trying to discredit it, at least.

  50. “I think bird control is the major concern now a days.”

    Yeah, those vast swarms of chickadees, nuthatches and goldfinches sure are a problem.

  51. >>
    >> “I think bird control is the major concern now a days.”
    >
    > Yeah, those vast swarms of chickadees, nuthatches and
    > goldfinches sure are a problem.
    >

    Again, what’s with the knee jerk snarkiness?

    Bird control is indeed a major concern in some areas. You can find serious bird control efforts near some flight paths and in many urban and coastal areas where some birds can cause unsightly and/or unhealthy results. Feral bird control is also a concern for some agricultural and poultry businesses. Some birds can also cause serious property damage.

    Again, even a tiny amount of research into this before indulging in snark would have revealed an entire industry devoted to bird control services and merchandise.

    A more measured response would have to be ask what relevance does bird control have to this particular discussion. I can’t think of any relevance. And I’m not aware any major bird control issues in our neck of the woods. Sounds like a non sequitur to me.

  52. Cramer wrote:
    > Although this, too, will be considered biased and agenda driven and
    > inconclusive, I found it interesting: http://www.naiaonline…ogy_11.pdf

    Yes, it is interesting. But I’m not sure what to make of your comment. Do *you* believe it to be “biased, agenda driven and inconclusive”?

    I suppose the bias and agenda of the principal author is pretty obvious by visiting his website but this would only be relevant if you suspect that the bias has tainted the science. This is not a scientific study publishing any new data, conclusive or not. It’s just an essay claiming that that existing scientific studies don’t support the TNR advocate’s arguments. You don’t need to dwell on the bias and agenda of the author to determine if the essay makes a conclusive case or not.

    HBM wrote:
    > Thanks for that link, Stephen. Ric will be able to keep himself amused
    > for several days trying to discredit it, at least.

    HBM, you’re missing the main point of my badgering. I’m only marginally interested in poking holes in other people’s arguments. In this thread, I’m here mostly to poke holes in your arguments ๐Ÿ™‚

    Sure, your positions so far have been mostly borrowed from others and sometimes I need to consult the original sources to properly poke holes in them, but the purpose is mostly just to demonstrate how sloppy are your journalistic skills.

    So no, I’m not going to pick apart that essay and point out which arguments are strong and which are weak. Unless… do you want to adopt that entire essay as your argument? If so then maybe I’ll pick a few examples from the essay and check to see if the facts support your claims.

    Okay, maybe goading you to defend the entire essay is unfair. If you like, you can pick one or two of its claims and we can start from there.

  53. >> “Yes, cats can reproduce rapidly… an argument why TNR has a better
    >> chance than cat-kills.”
    >
    > Sorry, I don’t follow your logic. Neither dead cats nor neutered
    > cats can breed.

    You’ve missed the relevance of the discussion following this statement about colony population growth. If the observations from that study are accurate, unmanaged colonies with any breeding members tend to reestablish themselves fairly quickly. So a kill policy really only has a chance if ALL the breeders are killed before nature takes it course. This is probably both hard to do and very expensive. But a TNR policy can remove the breeders WITHOUT also reducing the capacity stresses that would normally result in another colony growth spurt so the entire colony doesn’t need to be trapped within the short window that a kill policy has. This makes TNR both easier and cheaper than a kill policy.

    In addition, another advantage that I haven’t addressed yet is the cooperation of civilians. Despite the cartoons, I suspect animal control rarely involves patrolling officers randomly picking up strays as they happen to spot them. That would likely be a hugely inefficient process. Most animal control is probably done in response to citizen requests/complaints. But many citizens do not want the cats killed. A kill policy often gets little cooperation from cat lovers, which again makes it very difficult to kill all the breeders in an area before new kittens refill the gap. On the other hand, it’s much easier to get cat lover cooperation with a TNR policy (even volunteer support!).

    A kill shelter also contributes to the number of abandoned cats as many cat owners who can no longer care for their pets and cannot find someone to adopt them are reluctant to have them killed in the shelter. A no-kill shelter option could help mitigate this.

  54. > Re your studies: Okay, it appears that in some instances TNR can
    > stabilize or reduce the size of feral cat colonies, although I would
    > still like to see data comparing the efficacy of TNR and T&E (trap
    > and euthanize) programs.

    Sigh… moving the goalpost? I guess I should have expected this.

    Tell you what. I’m sure this is an interesting question but I’m feeling a bit peckish. How about you do the research this time?

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