Got an e-mail “Action Alert” yesterday afternoon from Oregon Republican Chairman Bob Tiernan urging me to bombard the state’s Democratic congresspersons with phone calls opposing the “Obama-style health care reform” package that just cleared the Senate Finance Committee.
Tiernan waxes positively apoplectic over the finance committee bill – which in fact is a weak-kneed, limp-wristed, half-assed, token measure that fails to include any feature that would curb skyrocketing health insurance costs.
“As Republicans and responsible freedom-loving Americans, we cannot sit still and let this come to the Senate floor for a vote without letting our ranking Senator hear what we have to say! We must be heard!” Tiernan shrieks. The bill “robs our pocketbooks, threatens our freedom and would constitute one of the biggest governement [sic] takeovers in our country’s history.” (Bob must have been so excited that he forgot to run spell-check.)
Exactly what this terrible “government takeover” is taking over isn’t clear, since the bill offers no government-backed alternative to private health insurance (the “public option”), much less creating anything remotely resembling “socialized medicine” as it exists in Britain, Canada, and practically every other country in the developed world.
The meaning of the phrase “Obama-style health care reform” is pretty obscure too, since Obama has not proposed any health care reform bill of his own and has not endorsed the finance committee bill.
Whatever. Tiernan’s ravings make it obvious that the Republican Party is never going to support any health care reform, no matter how innocuous.
Tiernan orders his troops to flood the offices of Oregon’s Democratic senators and representatives with phone calls: “Enough is enough! The time to act is now! Put their numbers – all of them – into your cell-phones under speed dial and start calling their offices daily until they hear you! We must not sit back and let this happen! This push towards government-run health care is the biggest potential power-grab by the government of all time!”
It’s a familiar right-wing ploy: Get a small number of people to make a lot of noise so the media and the politicians will think they’re a large number of people.
Fortunately two can play at that game. So here, thoughtfully provided by Bob Tiernan (thanks, Bob), are the phone numbers of the Washington offices of Oregon’s Democratic senators and House members:
Sen. Ron Wyden: (202) 228-2717
Sen. Jeff Merkley: (202) 228-3997
Rep. David Wu: (202) 225-9497
Rep. Earl Blumenauer: (202) 225-8941
Rep. Peter DeFazio: (202) 225-6416
Rep. Kurt Schrader: (202) 225-5711
Enter these numbers into your cell phones and use your speed-dial to call, call, CALL! until our congressional delegation gets the message that Oregonians want REAL health care reform – including, at a minimum, the public option – and we want it NOW!
(Sorry, I only managed to work in two exclamation points compared to 11 in Tiernan’s e-mail. So here are some extra ones – throw them in wherever you want: !!!!!!!!!)
This article appears in Oct 15-21, 2009.
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Mr. Miller,
Either you are dumber than a post or so closed minded that you may as well be as dumb as a post.
It is your freedom that the government is taking away from you. It is very simple to comprehend. For a little while longer, you can make your own choice(s). You can choose to have health insurance or not. Some don’t want to and would rather spend their money on cigarettes (to make the point). Some may want to choose a different medical strategy than what you or the government decide is best for them. Mr. Miller, the choices that the individual wants to make are limitless until the government is directing you what you will do if you want health care. Those choices will be gone with your single payer system that this will ultimately become. FREEDOM Mr Miller, that is what is very clearly being taken away.
Mr. Miller, don’t you realize that every single time a law is passed, someone has just lost some of their freedom. That is what laws do, take away some more freedom. (Yes, we do need laws in society, but the laws created in the last 200 years in the country cover very well what is needed.)
As soon as you wrote the close minded, biased statement that it wasn’t clear what the government takeover was, I must admit that I shutdown and could not read the remainder of your thoughts.
This is only a start. Once implemented, it will be “improved” upon with “additional laws making it better”, and more freedom will be lost, along with the continuous ingenuity of improving medicine. Their will still be improvements, but without the financial incentives, rewards, those improvements will come at a slower pace.
That Mr Miller is what capitalism is, it is what has made this country so great, it is what has enabled this country to take care of the world in times of disaster, or despot rulers trying to take over the world.
I wish you could value your freedom and let us “idiots” make our mistakes as we see fit. I am sure you live an excellent, perfect life, but that is excellent and perfect for you. I am sure I would not want to be living your life that you perceive to be good for all of us. I wish you could understand what freedom means to me, and to other independent thinkers in society.
Allow me “Self Interest”, please don’t take that away from me. You live your life in your perceived perfect manner. And let me live mine. That is what so many men have lost their lives for–FREEDOM. Yes, I shrieked the word because it is so valuable to me.
Mr. Cattell,
You are a fool. Health care reform is not doing away with private health care – it’s giving you a choice. You’re not going to loose your FREEDOM!!!!! You’re going to gain more FREEDOM. You are actually going to have a choice. That’s what so many valuable men and women died for. Follow the debate. Single payer is dead. Hell, the public option is almost dead. The spineless democrats are giving up every shred of value they were voted in on to a bunch of out of power Republicans. Now that will make you sick.
Gadfly: 62% of Americans support a government insurance program similar to Medicare but available to everybody (CBS News Poll, 10/5-10/8) and yet the public option is all but dead in Congress. It’s clear who our so-called representatives are really representing — and it ain’t us.
Mr. Cattell: Your arguments are so ridiculous that they are not worth a rebuttal. If it were left up to people like you we would still have slavery. (After all, outlawing it interfered with people’s freedom to own slaves.)
Mr. Cattell,
I think the better analogy is if you choose not to have some form of health insurance then you are as dumb as a post.
I understand some do not have the money for health insurance but I think that is what the health care plan is about.
If you choose not to have health care on the other hand, then you are making it more expensive for me to keep my health care. If you MR. Cattell have to go into the hospital for some ODD reason and you don’t pay your bill, I along with millions of other Americans have to pay it for you.
If you would like to prove to all America that you personally can afford to take care of all your medical bills that you might possibly rack up through out your lifetime, then by all means don’t vote for health care reform. But most American’s cannot afford that luxury.
You are totally wrong about slavery Mr Miller. Only if you view black people (the slaves you refer to) as something other than people like yourself can you make such a ridiculous claim. If you view slaves as a different class of people, then you need new or separate laws. If you view black people the same as yourself, then no new laws are needed, just the enforcement of existing laws and the constitution that protects your freedom. And let me be absolutely, fully clear, I adamantly support the rights of all people. You will now probably want to label me a racist when I am trying to talk about the loss of freedom in the health care debate. Unbelievable!!
The US constitution guaranteed the slaves equal rights as you and I. Slavery was not “outlawed” by new laws. The constitution guaranteed them the same freedom we all enjoy. That is what the Civil War was all about. The upholding of the constitution.
I regret doing it but I will lower myself to your level making the cheap shot that it was the Republicans (President Lincoln) that fought for the freedom of the slaves. Slavery was not outlawed as you claim, it was the upholding of the constitution by people who love their freedom that took away the ability for anyone to own a slave.
Your argument or analogy has little to do with the health care debate. But I understand your need to change subject, to divert when you cannot rebut.
It is freedom to choose that new laws will take away. The loss of freedom will occur in multiple ways. 1) Increased taxes to pay for the government run health care; 2) Reduced choices as to who I can seek for health care since fewer people will want to enter the medical field when it is controlled by the government, limiting their pay, limiting treatments to patients not deemed healthy enough for additional services; 3) New research will be less forthcoming as the financial incentives are taken away by the government and I won’t have new technology that would otherwise be available; 4) And let there be no doubt, you and Mr Gadfly will continue to pursue Single Payer, as evidenced by the fact that you condemn your representatives for giving up on Single Payer (it is not dead), and when that happens, the health care government representative will determine at some point that you are no longer worth the additional expense to the tax payer for further medical treatment. The gut wrenching experience to be the recipient of a “NO” answer from the government official on my continued health care is difficult to fully imagine.
Presently, under the current system, a person with more money can get better health care, and that is tough to take, but when it is run by the government, you will get better health care based on who you know, whether or not you have a friend in the government. And that is even worse, much worse in my view. I have the choice now to direct confiscatory funds towards health insurance if I so choose. But I can’t control who I know in government to provide me health care when I am sick.
Mr Miller, let me remind you that the government excludes itself from this system they and you want to impose upon me. This is exactly what I refer to when I say it will be who you know if the government is running health care.
The Racist.
Mr. Miller, and Gadfly,
Since it si obvious neither of you has any understanding of what the current bill declares, let me give you an example of what will happen.
The “choice” that the bill gives you is if you do not want to buy insurance, or if your employer does not want to give you insurance, that will then become a misdemeanor punishable by a $250.00 fine for a person, and $750.00 for a business, plus a possible jail sentence. However, the bill also requires that no one be turned down for a pre-existing condition. What is there to prevent a person, or a business, from refusing to buy insurance at $1200 to $1400 a month, then when one gets sick signing up for government insurance? Would not the savings of $14,000 plus a year pay off as compared to a $250.00, or $750.00, fine?
What of the “death panels” Robert Reich was speaking of? How would you feel if you had an illness, or were of an age, when you had only a year, or two, to live and the gov’t decides that treatment is not financially viable for you?
And do you really want to discuss the “success” of Medicare? Do you want the same limitations that are imposed by Medicare applied to you?
The final argument, and one most of you will avoid since you have no real solution, is where are you going to get the 90,000 additional doctors required to implement this? Currently 40% of the people, or those entitled to EITC, on welfare, SS, SSDI, etc., do not pay taxes. Who is going to pay for it?
Everybody wants reform, however, intelligent reform is what is needed, not a hit, and miss, gamble that is guaranteed to increase taxes of all forms, and not cure the problem.
And about your slavery comment, just as the leftwing ideologues under the hypnotic influence of the Democratic Party, and the desire for getting something for nothing, have supported slavery in the past, and are creating a group of slaves for the current government, you still support slavery, and a government plantation for all to live on. It’s just not limited to Blacks.
The bottomline is, Obama won. He holds the Presidency, the first legitimate in eight years. He holds majorities both in the Senate and the House of Representatives, of whom I last heard were elected to represent the 77% of the population that wants some kind of public option.
You know, when the Republicans were in such a position, they thought nothing of ramming their shit down our throats. a couple of no-value wars built on lies, a trillion dollar surplus turned into a trillion dollar deficit, feed the rich / tax the poor… bail the bankers out and guarantee Ivan the Insurance Agent millions of indentured clientele.
Let’s see – White House, Senate, House… 77% of the population. What part of the equation don’t the Democrats understand? Just open Medicare up to the general population and be done with it. You’ve been trying to do it for sixty years, now just do it.
trap, you’re just about right on, so I wonder if you’ll answer one question for me? How is morally superior that an insurance agent is making life and death decisions, about other’s lives?
It’s a pretty sad observation of where we’re at these days, when unemployed, often uninsured, former blue collar workers are demanding that the government do nothing to help out.
“The US constitution guaranteed the slaves equal rights as you and I. Slavery was not “outlawed” by new laws. The constitution guaranteed them the same freedom we all enjoy. That is what the Civil War was all about. The upholding of the constitution.”
Bullcrap. Slavery did not become unconstitutional until passage of the 13th Amendment — AFTER the Civil War.
But I see no point in arguing with you further; you are “armored in invincible ignorance,” to borrow a phrase from P.D. James.
“What of the “death panels” Robert Reich was speaking of?”
Oh god, not THAT crap again. You really need to start getting your information from some sources other than Faux News and Limbaugh.
BTW where did the “90,000 more doctors” figure come from? And where did you get the peculiar idea that people on Social Security pay no income tax?
What really has the right-wingers scared spitless about the public option has nothing to do with “freedom” but with the likelihood that it will WORK and people will like it, further demolishing their cherished dogma that “government is the problem, not the solution.” That’s what happened with Medicare. (The right-wingers were screaming “SOCIALIZED MEDICINE!” when that was enacted too. Now they’re using the bogus “They’ll take away your Medicare!” claim to scare seniors into opposing health care reform. Rather ironic, eh?)
Mr. Miller and Mr. Gadfly,
It is a shame that the two of you do not have the foresight and common sense of Tom Cattell and Old Trapper. You both claim that we are given a new choice in a government run “public option”. What a lovely choice that would be:
a)Hell if you do.
b)Hell if you don't.
I see the public school system dumbing-down our children. I see the public welfare system stripping Americans of their self-reliance and independence. I hear government officials proposing putting the growing, ignorant, lazy, government-dependent population to work through a public Americorp, a proposed mandatory volunteer work program. Mandatory free labor, working on government projects! Maybe then they could afford to cut the Federal budget. Brilliant! Let's put America back to work – let's just not pay them anything they can call their own. Where is the incentive, innovation, challenge, and motivation in that? There is none. Who needs it, right?
Everything government gives you has strings attached – everything! And those strings are tethers on freedom! Can you not see that? You can point out another man's typo and belittle his passion for freedom and independence. Yet you can not recognize your own atrophy of these core values. Those of us who believe in higher ideals don't want a “public option” – we don't want government in our lives at all. We designed a federal government to protect our borders. We designed local government to protect our homes and “private” property. As individuals, we once worked together to keep each other safe and watch each other's backs. Today we are being encouraged to stab each other's backs, and devalue life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Mr. Miller and Mr. Gadfly,
It is a shame that the two of you do not have the foresight and common sense of Tom Cattell and Old Trapper. You both claim that we are given a new choice in a government run “public option”. What a lovely choice that would be:
a)Hell if you do.
b)Hell if you don't.
I see the public school system dumbing-down our children. I see the public welfare system stripping Americans of their self-reliance and independence. I hear government officials proposing putting the growing, ignorant, lazy, government-dependent population to work through a public Americorp, a proposed mandatory volunteer work program. Mandatory free labor, working on government projects! Maybe then the politicians can afford to cut the Federal budget. Let's put America back to work – let's just not pay them anything they can call their own. Where is the incentive, innovation, challenge, and motivation in that? There is none. Who needs it, right?
Everything government gives you has strings attached – everything! And those strings are tethers on freedom! Can you not see that? You can point out another man's typo and belittle his passion for freedom and independence. Yet you can not recognize your own atrophy of these core values. Those of us who believe in higher ideals don't want a “public option” – we don't want government in our lives at all. We designed a federal government to protect our borders. We designed local government to protect our homes and “private” property. As individuals, we once worked together to keep each other safe and watch each other's backs. Today we are being encouraged to stab each other's backs, and devalue life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Again I pose the question: “How is morally superior that an insurance agent is paid to make life and death decisions about someone else’s lives?”
If you can’t answer the question…
You question makes no sense. Insurance agents don’t make those decisions – they sell insurance policies. You choose to buy the policy or not. When you need medical care, the doctor gives you or your family the choice to have the procedure or not. It is the individual patient’s decision.
Currently, insured or not, American citizen or not, no one is turned away in hospitols. And yes, we all make up the difference. Immigration and tort reform are two answers to high medical costs.
H. Bruce Miller says:
“What of the “death panels” Robert Reich was speaking of?”
Oh god, not THAT crap again. You really need to start getting your information from some sources other than Faux News and Limbaugh.”
TY once again for demonstrating your lack of knowledge on the subject in many ways. It is that ignorance that will guarantee the leftwing loonie Democrats that they will not lose your vote.
The video of Robert Reich’s comments is readily available for all to see. However, in the bill, as has been discussed many times, are panels that will determine benefits, etc. Obama has already instituted an “end of life” discussion for disabled, and elderly, veterans in which they are “counselled” on the value of ones existence, or the continuation of their life. A bill was introduced by Blumenauer, a supporter of euthanasia, that would pay doctors to do the same under the new program. While it was allegedly stripped from the bill there is no reason to believe that it would not be restored.
“BTW where did the “90,000 more doctors” figure come from? And where did you get the peculiar idea that people on Social Security pay no income tax?”
At this time there is already a shortage of medical personell, including doctors, in the country. There is one doctor for every 416 individuals. If you were to add millions more to the roles then it should be obvious that more doctors will be needed. The estimate by the WH is 50,000. However, if you were to add what some estimate to be an additional 30 million, or more, then you would need more doctors. Currently there are approximately 940,000 doctors in the US. Do the math. If you have over 300 million people enrolled, and you would want one doctor for every 300 people, would you not need more then one million doctors?
As to the Medicare question, unless one has other income then SS you pay no taxes. The most one can receive on SS would be around 1500 a month. Again, do the math.
“What really has the right-wingers scared spitless about the public option has nothing to do with “freedom” but with the likelihood that it will WORK and people will like it, further demolishing their cherished dogma that “government is the problem, not the solution.” That’s what happened with Medicare. (The right-wingers were screaming “SOCIALIZED MEDICINE!” when that was enacted too. Now they’re using the bogus “They’ll take away your Medicare!” claim to scare seniors into opposing health care reform. Rather ironic, eh?)”
Government run Medicare has not worked. That is why there are Part D, and Part F, policies which one must buy. And even then Part D does not cover all medications, Medicare does not pay all expenses, and Part F has a co-pay which is raised each year. Now, under the current “reform” plan there will be an additional 400 to 620 billion taken out fo the program. Who is going to pay for that loss, and how will it effect benefits?
Part D when first implemented was said to cost 90 billion. Now the cost is up to 900 billion. If one can use that as an example, or any government program such as farm aid, college tuition aid, food stamps, etc., how much do you think this program will really cost when it is estimated to be 829 billion?
Mr. Miller,
The 13th Amendment had to be written for people like you who see color, who see race in all walks of life. The second sentence of the Declaration of Independence states all men are created equal. The 13th Amendment was written for those who view people of color as different. It had to be spelled out for them when they could not understand the meaning of all men are created equal.
You brought the race into the health care debate as a distraction from not being able to refute that government run health care is all about taking away the citizen’s freedom.
Government run health care is a loss of freedom Mr. Miller. Face reality.
“However, in the bill, as has been discussed many times, are panels that will determine benefits, etc.”
Of course; how can any insurance program provide unlimited benefits? But how is that any worse than insurance companies determining the benefits? At least a government-run program would have some public accountability; insurance companies only have to answer to their stock holders, who are only concerned about the bottom line — i.e. delivering the minimum possible benefits for the greatest possible cost.
“Government run Medicare has not worked.”
If “government-run Medicare has not worked,” why do senior citizens who receive it virtually unanimously support it? Do you remember the era before Medicare? People over 65 were the poorest age cohort in America, and the reason for that was medical costs. Okay, Medicare is not perfect — no human institution ever is. But that does not even come close to justifying the bald assertion that “Medicare has not worked.”
If you believe “Medicare has not worked” you should try to get your member of Congress to introduce a bill to abolish it. See how far THAT flies.
“Insurance agents don’t make those decisions – they sell insurance policies. You choose to buy the policy or not. When you need medical care, the doctor gives you or your family the choice to have the procedure or not. It is the individual patient’s decision.”
What planet have you been living on? Insurance companies determine what benefits are covered by your policy. If you go to the doctor and he says you need a procedure or treatment and your policy doesn’t cover it, unless you can pay for it out of your own pocket (in many cases up front) you will not get it. It’s as simple as that. Your insurance company makes the decisions about what health care you get, not you. If you don’t understand this you either are immensely wealthy and pay all your medical bills yourself or (much more likely) you have never been seriously ill.
“Currently, insured or not, American citizen or not, no one is turned away in hospitols [sic]”
Yes, because that’s the law. But do you know what happens when an indigent patient shows up at a hospital emergency room? As soon as his condition is “stabilized” — i.e., he’s not in imminent danger of death — they’ll send him home to die. That’s terrific “medical care,” isn’t it?
“Those of us who believe in higher ideals don't want a “public option” – we don't want government in our lives at all.”
Tellya what: You and Mr. Cattell and Old Trapper should find a remote cave somewhere and live in it together. Old Trapper can trap game for you to eat and you and Cattell can do — well, whatever it is you do. You won’t have to pay any income taxes because you’ll have no income. You won’t have to pay property taxes because you won’t have any taxable property, just the cave.
But if one of you gets sick or injured, don’t call the government-supported 911 emergency dispatch system and expect government-employed paramedics to come and help you — that would be inconsistent with your “higher ideals.” And if some criminal attacks you, don’t expect the government-employed police to do anything about it. And if a forest fire breaks out and threatens your lives, don’t expect government-employed firefighters to put it out. And of course you can’t ever use public roads or any other government-built facility. And when you get too old and sick to care for yourselves … well, you’ll just have to die in your cave because you’ll have no money to pay for medical care and no way to get to a hospital.
Yes, I believe that would be the only way of life completely in accord with your “higher ideals.” Bon chance.
So Miller, rather then debate the facts. or even try to refute them, you give up, and start with the personal attacks, and usual lunacy.
Rather dispicable, yet not unexpected.
H. Bruce Miller says:
Of course; how can any insurance program provide unlimited benefits? But how is that any worse than insurance companies determining the benefits? At least a government-run program would have some public accountability; insurance companies only have to answer to their stock holders, who are only concerned about the bottom line — i.e. delivering the minimum possible benefits for the greatest possible cost.”
What accountability is there for the current system? Hundreds of billions lost in waste, and fraud, and what has been done? Government programs answer to no one. All the legislators have to do is raise premiums, or taxes, to pay for the losses. For them there is no “bottom line”, and so far I have seen none of the Democrat legislators willing to accept the plan for themselves.
“If “government-run Medicare has not worked,” why do senior citizens who receive it virtually unanimously support it? Do you remember the era before Medicare? People over 65 were the poorest age cohort in America, and the reason for that was medical costs. ”
Because they can afford nothing else, and it is mandated that they accept it. Now, what is going to happen when Medicare has gone broke, and after they take billions from the current program? Co-pays are going up, and premiums are going up. Additionally they will have to ration the healthcare eventually.
“Okay, Medicare is not perfect — no human institution ever is. But that does not even come close to justifying the bald assertion that “Medicare has not worked.”
If you believe “Medicare has not worked” you should try to get your member of Congress to introduce a bill to abolish it. See how far THAT flies.”
Then the question becomes why would you think another government program is going to work when it is going to be designed on the platform of Medicare?
It always entertains me when people assume self-reliance and individual freedom is primitive thinking and resists innovation, when in fact it produces the opposite. Preferring the “private” in private property over imminent domain and government permits / approval on private property use is mocked as caveman mentality. I said earlier that local government was designed to protect and keep our private property safe. Endorsing individual freedom, community leadership, free-enterprise and competition does not require big (or federal) government intervention or loss of services.
I have been there – seriously ill, financially struggling, and uninsured due to preexisting conditions all at once. I applied myself to get through it and I did. I did not ask for or expect government help. I became stronger for it. Innovation, fortitude, and intelligence rescued me – not Uncle Sam. There is a difference between a hand-up and a hand-out. The first inspires one to succeed; the later dismisses the need to succeed.
The difference between you and Mr. Cattell is obvious. Where a disaster to occur up there in Oregon, and you were stripped of all modern comforts, and forced to live on your own recognizance. You would likely be begging for help and starving, where Mr. Cattell would easily survive.
Mr Miller, you say it is not about (y)our freedom, you are wrong Mr. Miller, that is all it is about.
There are many analogies in this story, if you catch even a few of them, it will be good.
You catch wild pigs by finding a suitable place in the woods and putting corn on the ground. The pigs find it and begin to come everyday to eat the free corn. When they are used to coming every day, you put a fence down one side of the place where they are used to coming. When they get used to the fence, they begin to eat the corn again and you put up another side of the fence. They get used to that and start to eat again. You continue until; you have all four sides of the fence up with a gate in the last side. The pigs, which are used to the free corn, start to come through the gate to eat that free corn again. You then slam the gate on them and catch the whole herd.
Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom. They run around and around inside the fence, but they are caught.
Soon they go back to eating the free corn.
They are so used to it that they have forgotten how to forage in the woods for themselves, so they accept their captivity.
The government keeps pushing us toward Communism/Socialism by spreading the free corn out in the form of programs such as supplemental income, tax credit for unearned income, tax exemptions, tobacco subsidies, dairy subsidies, payments not to plant crops, welfare, health care, medicine, drugs, etc. while we continually lose our freedoms, just a little at a time.
If you see that all of this wonderful government ‘help’ is a problem confronting the future of democracy in America , you are still sitting outside the fence.
If you think the free ride and more government assistance are essential to your way of life, then keep your head in the corn trough and enjoy life. (Have a good time!)
“Then the question becomes why would you think another government program is going to work when it is going to be designed on the platform of Medicare?”
Because Medicare HAS worked — not perfectly, but it has worked. Ask the millions of seniors who would be living in poverty because of medical bills if Medicare didn’t exist.
Or maybe they wouldn’t be living at all. Some years back I had an elderly friend (in his 70s) who needed bypass surgery. He had very little income — a small amount of Social Security and a small military pension (he served in WWII). Medicare covered every dime for the bypass surgery and follow-up care. He enjoyed another 10 years of life thanks to that. Without Medicare he probably would have been dead within a year or two of his heart disease being diagnosed.
I’ll repeat it: The reason conservatives fear a public option on the Medicare model is that they know it WOULD work, and that would drive another nail into the coffin of their absurd “the government never does anything right” dogma.
“I said earlier that local government was designed to protect and keep our private property safe. Endorsing individual freedom, community leadership, free-enterprise and competition does not require big (or federal) government intervention or loss of services.”
Okay, now I get it — government services that YOU need are okay, but government services that OTHER PEOPLE need go against your “higher ideals.”
“The difference between you and Mr. Cattell is obvious. Where a disaster to occur up there in Oregon, and you were stripped of all modern comforts, and forced to live on your own recognizance. You would likely be begging for help and starving, where Mr. Cattell would easily survive.”
I don’t know what you know about Cattell, but you don’t know a damn thing about me and my skills and resources. BTW you speak of “up there in Oregon.” Where are you?
No, I don't think you get it yet, Mr. Miller, but maybe with some “help” from the government you will. Yes, I don't know you from Adam; I base my impression solely on your comments. Man-A talks like he would rather someone else manage his life, while Man-B prefers making his own decisions. Man-A becomes giddy at the thought of massive government spending and control, while Man-B becomes enraged by the loss of freedom and independence. Man-A sees government as the single answer; while Man-B sees infinite solutions given free-enterprise and innovation. Man-A talks like a victim, while Man-B talks like a hero.
There are huge numbers of non-profit organizations in every community which reach out to people like your friend. Unfortunately, they are now losing resources because they will no longer be allowed as a tax write-off, and unemployment is increasing thanks to government “solutions”, so less people can afford to give to charities.
I live in a State that has no State income tax and has tort reform. We have a lot of people and doctors moving here for those reasons alone. Things are less expensive here too, they say. We even pump our own gas. We also have a lot of energy resources here. Oregon is beautiful. I love Oregon! I would enjoy living there, but from what I read your unemployment, taxes, cost of living, and regulations, are ridiculously high.
Can you guess where I am?
“Yes, I don't know you from Adam; I base my impression solely on your comments.”
Based on that comment, I get the impression that you are an idiot who thinks in crude stereotypes.
“Can you guess where I am?”
Texas. There are probably more right-wing idiots there than any other state.
“There are huge numbers of non-profit organizations in every community which reach out to people like your friend.”
Ah yes, “private charity” will solve everything — more right-wing dogma straight out of the can. I don’t know of any non-profits that can afford to pay for heart bypass surgery for every indigent old person who needs it.
Mr. Miller, Contrary to what you believe and stated, stopping government health care is all about Freedom. A short story with numerous analogies embedded may someday cause you to pause and think. If you pick up on even a few of the analogies it would be tremendous.
How do you catch free roaming wild pigs? You catch wild pigs by finding a suitable place in the woods and putting corn on the ground. The pigs find it and begin to come everyday to eat the free corn. When they are used to coming every day, you put a fence down one side of the place where they are used to coming. When they get used to the fence, they begin to eat the corn again and you put up another side of the fence. They get used to that and start to eat again. You continue until; you have all four sides of the fence up with a gate in the last side. The pigs, which are used to the free corn, start to come through the gate to eat that free corn again. You then slam the gate on them and catch the whole herd.
Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom. They run around and around inside the fence, hollering, but they are caught.
Soon they go back to eating the free corn.
They are so used to it that they have forgotten how to forage in the woods for themselves, so they accept their captivity.
The government keeps pushing us toward Communism/Socialism and keeps spreading the free corn out in the form of programs such as supplemental income, tax credit for unearned income, tax exemptions, tobacco subsidies, dairy subsidies, payments not to plant crops, welfare, medicine, health care, drugs, etc. while we continually lose our freedoms, just a little at a time.
If you see that all of this wonderful government ‘help’ is a problem confronting the future of democracy in America, you are still sitting outside the fence.
If you think the free ride and more government assistance are essential to your way of life, then keep your head in the corn trough and enjoy life.
“Based on that comment, I get the impression that you are an idiot who thinks in crude stereotypes.”
Man-A is very rude and defensive; Man-B is polite.
If I worked for the IRS, Census Bureau, AARP, or Mental Health Association, I might have more information about you to base my opinion on, but I'm afraid I don't. Texans do think crude however; … oil that is, black gold, Texas tea. 😉
H. Bruce Miller says:
Because Medicare HAS worked — not perfectly, but it has worked. Ask the millions of seniors who would be living in poverty because of medical bills if Medicare didn’t exist.”
And you think millions aren’t now living in poverty? Medicare only covers 80% of the bill, and only covers one year of hospitalization in the event of a crisis. Who do you think pays the rest, that is, if they have any property of any value?
Medicare is going broke, and you want to add more costs to the system.
“Or maybe they wouldn’t be living at all. Some years back I had an elderly friend (in his 70s) who needed bypass surgery. He had very little income — a small amount of Social Security and a small military pension (he served in WWII). Medicare covered every dime for the bypass surgery and follow-up care. He enjoyed another 10 years of life thanks to that. Without Medicare he probably would have been dead within a year or two of his heart disease being diagnosed.”
And the VA paid nothing? Give me a break.
“I’ll repeat it: The reason conservatives fear a public option on the Medicare model is that they know it WOULD work, and that would drive another nail into the coffin of their absurd “the government can never do anything right (except wage wars)” dogma.”
Better come up with some better examples then the one you just gave. BTW, the VA is going broke too, the Oregon Health Plan went broke in 2004, etc. No government plan has ever worked, and has only added to the cost of insurance, and medical care.
“Okay, now I get it — government services that YOU need are okay, but government services that OTHER PEOPLE need go against your “higher ideals.”
I would suspect he paid for his, now you want him to pay for others, and probably yours.
“I don’t know what you know about Cattell, but you don’t know a damn thing about me and my skills and resources. BTW you speak of “up there in Oregon.” Where are you?”
Well, we do know enough to understand that you are depending on this healthcare bill passing so you can get your freebie at the expense of others.
H. Bruce Miller says:,
Ah yes, “private charity” will solve everything — more right-wing dogma straight out of the can. I don’t know of any non-profits that can afford to pay for heart bypass surgery for every indigent old person who needs it.”
Is that what he said, or is that just your spin in order to make you appear to have some form of knowledge on the subject?
One of the reasons why health insuirance is so expensive is simply because people are too stupid to shop around. Kind of like people wwho consistently shop at Fred Meyers, Albertson’s, etc., rather then Food-4_Less, Grocery Outlet, etc., or would buy their gas at Chevron then at Exxon.
Try doing some research and you will find there are insurance companies that charge a lot less then Blue Shield, Aetna, etc., and give the same coverage.
“One of the reasons why health insuirance is so expensive is simply because people are too stupid to shop around.”
If you get your insurance through your employer, as most Americans do, you do not have the option of shopping around — you take the plan your company offers, period. Unless you want to purchase individual insurance, which is FAR more expensive. (I know it is because I have it.)
“Try doing some research and you will find there are insurance companies that charge a lot less then Blue Shield, Aetna, etc., and give the same coverage.”
Would you care to share the names of these companies, Ken? It would be very useful information to many people, I’m sure.
Oh, and another thing — if you have any “pre-existing condition” you can’t switch insurance companies because no other company will insure you.
“Texans do think crude however; … oil that is, black gold, Texas tea. 😉 ”
So you ARE from Texas, then. Gosh, how did I ever guess?
Thank your trial lawyers for expensive health care and insurance.
As yet the question “How is morally superior that an insurance agent is making life and death decisions, about other’s lives?’ remains unanswered.
I am never ceased to amaze at how the wingnut mind (if it be called that) works. Disconnected in entirety from reality, cognitively dissonant with facts on the ground it obfuscates (I think I’d look really cool in glasses so can I jerk off (take Viagra) a little while longer?), distracts (hey look! billybob and peggysue…) and outright lies… Death Panels, indeed… while the question “How is morally superior that an insurance agent is paid, in the pursuit of corporate profit, to make life and death decisions, about someone else’s lives?” remains unanswered.
A sad mark indeed when unemployed, uninsured, once American Backbone Blue Collar workers demand that the government to whom they’ve paid so many tax dollars to for so many years not offer them a hand.
Yeah. Too bad we don’t have unemployment benefits, retraining programs, SCHIPPS, Medicaid, Oregon Health Plan, low income housing, energy assistance, food stamps, etc. to help those who are unemployed, and/or having a hard time.
The too, I asked long ago where we would get the needed doctors for the additional clients of the “public option”, and no one seems to know. I also asked who was going to pay for it when the worker today is having to give the first 4 to 5 months of his wages just to pay off the interest on the national debt, and people want to increase it. Harry Reid says the actual cost of the program will be around 2 trillion, and others say it will be closer to 4 trillion. Even then some estimates say that 20 million will still be uninsured.
Yep, a “great idea” that is driving other countries bankrupt, causing rationing, so lets bring it here.
Mr. Miller, I know you haven’t the time to do your own research, so start here
http://www.healthinsurance.org/oregon
Every doctor I have heard from is ready to call it quits under the Health Care Plan, because their income will drop by 50%. They will be unable to pay their employees, maintain / purchase equipment, and pay their humongous liability insurance, etc. What incentive would any young person have in go into medicine. Their students loans alone are a huge liability once they graduate.
As Mr. Cattell and Mr. Swipies have explained, once the gates are closed – freedom is lost. You can't vote the debt away – it's here to stay. How high and how deep do you want the fence to be? How many trillions? All the offspring of those hogs will never have a concept of what “freedom” means. Those that remember will be conveniently old and feeble, and ready for the morpheme drip.
Mr. Cattell: Your little fable about the pigs is amusing, but not very apropos. Human beings are smarter than pigs. Well, most of us, anyway.
Are you going to seriously suggest that the citizens of every nation with “socialized medicine” (and that’s practically all of them) are living under tyranny? Yes, you probably are.
You read too much Ayn Rand in high school. Her books were fiction. Get over it.
Swipies: I went to the link you posted. There isn’t a great deal of difference in price among the plans available to me. A couple have lower monthly premiums, but they also have higher deductibles (as much as $10,000 compared to my $5,000), co-pays and co-insurance rates (30% to $40% compared to my 20%). Also there probably are procedures they don’t cover that my insurance does. So in the end it’s probably a wash. I didn’t see any big bargains there.
Mr. Miller, I understand your life philosophy, a liberal’s philosophy better now.
I value my freedom at the expense of making stupid decisions.
You place lesser value on freedom; more value in reliance on your fellow man (those who won in the financial lottery of life) to take care of you, and believe that the hoity-toity experts of government know better than you or I. These so called experts do believe they know what is best for me and want to control my life.
But they do not Mr Miller. The fellow that wants to climb Monkey Face is being quite stupid, but he knows what is best for him in his life, he knows the risks, and I will stand at the base and admire him for taking those risks. I will not stop him from making “stupid” choices with his life. It is not my business, even though I may have to pay for the cleanup of blood should be become a spot at the base, that would be a cost of people having freedom. You see, from his perspective, he is living life, while my standing at the base looking up at him, is not living. I say, let him live his life.
So now I owe you an apology. When you wrote your original article, you stated that the meaning of this government takeover was not clear, while to me it is very clear. It is a question of Freedom. This is very clear to me and I overreacted to your comment. The numerous analogies in the pig story indeed are very apropos to someone who values their Freedom. To someone that does not value Freedom, no, the analogies would not even register.
I understand now why it was not clear to you. You put little value on your freedom, and I place it above all else. I am not being critical of you here, I am recognizing a different set of values and I apologize for my over the top reaction of calling you dumber than a post. That was wrong.
I am getting off subject here, but given the different set of values, I can understand my propensity to go to war earlier than you in defending my freedom.
Interesting.
Mr. Miller writes:
“Mr. Cattell: Your little fable about the pigs is amusing, but… Human beings are smarter than pigs. Well, most of us, anyway. Are you going to seriously suggest that the citizens of every nation with “socialized medicine” (and that’s practically all of them) are living under tyranny? Yes, you probably are.”
Swipies: I went to the link you posted. There isn’t a great deal of difference in price. Also there probably are procedures they don’t cover that my insurance does. So in the end it’s probably a wash.
Spoken like a corn-fed bore. You should read some George Orwell, Mr. Miller.
I guess the national debt probably isn't that big, taxes probably don't effect our individual net income; our individual net income probably doesn't effect our spending; our spending probably doesn't effect businesses; businesses probably don't effect the job market; the job market probably doesn't effect the national economy, because those of us with jobs can probably pay more taxes; and paying more taxes probably doesn't effect the hours we must work to make ends meet, because more taxes probably doesn't effect business owners ability to pay employees; and working longer hours for less income probably doesn't effect our freedom…
What Tom Cattell explained in his analogy is a technique animal trainers and psychologists use often: “conditioning”. It is accomplished very gradually, with positive and / or negative reinforcement. Your comments are conditioned responses. Your inability to think for yourself is a conditioned response. Your belief that there is only one solution, government intervention, is a conditioned response.
IOW, Mr. Miller, you've been at the trough too long.
The story about the pigs also reminded me of the old saying: “Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.”
The same is true about trying to teach a right-winger to think logically and face facts. So I’m going to stop wasting my time and annoying you. Good bye.
ROTFLMAO – it is apparent goughpss hasn’t read more than a paragraph or two of Orwell, if at all; otherwise, it is be hoped, it would recognize the utter backwardness of its’ last comment. Funniest damned thing I’ve seen all day, a real “Get a clue, Morans” moment. Or a Darwin Award.
What is there that is logical about your position Mr. Miller?
What you are hoping for is that someone else will earn enough money for them to pay high enough taxes for you to get your insurance at a cheaper prices, and thereby force millions more to be dependent on a government run program from the same government that has never had a program that was operated within its budget, and has always demanded more tazation.
Would it not be better if the governemnt would quit interfering in the economy, allow jobs to be created rather then to destroy them, and allow people to decide for themselves what they rather then to be forced with threat of a fine, or imprisonment, if they do not accept what the government offers? You do know that with the governments “unlimited” resources it will destroy private insurance save for the extremely wealthy.
In the same manner, it is this government that destroyed the American economy with MFN for Red China, NAFTA, GATT/WTO, refusing to secure the borders, refusing to eliminate gangs within its borders, the destruction of the education system, welfare of any form, etc. And you will rely on it to solve the heathcare prograqm.
I would put it to you that it is the government that has destroyed what was once the greatest healthcare system in the world, and in many ways still is.
And this administration, rather then focus on allowing businesses to create new jobs (60% of those under 18 are unemployed, while the businesses that received the bailout moneys are again getting record bonuses), it is doing all it can to hinder job growth so it can claim a crisis to pass bills such as this healthcare bill, Cap and Trade, etc., all of which will create no jobs, raise the cost of living, raise taxes, and create a situation where only the hogs of Orwell will live comfortably.
“More, please?”
Consequences clear as glass to people like Tom Cattell, Ken Swipies, and I,
have been programmed into others to be a pack of lies.
Propaganda programs are the pipe dreams they believe.
The majority will no longer need to work, because a few roll up their sleeves.
They will no longer need to worry about decisions they must make,
because the number of their choices will eventually fade away.
They believe those in governmental power want to provide their every need;
They take the bait, hook, line and sinker, and become complacent and lazy.
They surrender all their assets, all their savings and identities,
Because they believe the government officials will give them back for free.
When the government assigns community services jobs to all of them,
they will gladly work for nothing for the good of Uncle Sam.
Then one day they start to notice their free frig isn't working and it is always bare;
the roof that they've been given is leaking;
and they've been waiting months for their health care.
They approach their government officials in the mansion on the hill;
And they're told to get to work on their assigned job,
keep their mouths shut, and drink their swill.
BWAHAHahahahahahahahaha