This week’s letter of the week comes from Chris Moehl who reminds backcountry users that they need to get involved with the ongoing recreation planning efforts undertaken by the Forest Service along Century Drive if they want to preserve and protect their favorite backcountry spots. Thanks for the letter Chris. We hope that folks will make their voices heard on this important issue. In the meantime, you can make tracks to the Source to grab your prize for this week’s letter, two smoothies at Maui Wowi.
Thank you, Pam Stevenson for your timely advice “Backcountry Skiers Unite” (Nov 6). The Forest Service is moving ahead with a plan to build the Kapka snowpark immediately SE of the Century Drive and Sunriver junction. This lot would more than double the capacity for snowmobile parking in the Century Drive corridor.
As backcountry skiers and snowshoers, we need to collect our voices, and let the Forest Service know how we feel about competing for fresh tracks with, yet more, snowmobiles. Over 600 signatures have already been collected in support of designating a non-motorized zone at Tumalo Mountain. For more information, or to get involved in helping shape the future of our winter backcountry, please visit the Bend Backcountry Alliance at http://BendBC.com.
The Kapka snowpark project will be announced in a scoping letter that will be made public in early December. Following this there will be a 30-day comment period in which it is imperative that non-motorized backcountry users speak up. Alternatives to the project will be developed based on comments received.
I have much respect for the desires of all winter user groups, including snowmobilers, and upon sincere consideration I think it would be reasonable to designate the area around Tumalo Mountain as non-motorized. Doing this would better accommodate the growing numbers of all winter users throughout the area.
Happy Skiing,
Chris Moehl
This article appears in Nov 20-26, 2008.
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We all live in this community and have to accept that some of us like to ski, some of us like to ride snowmobiles. The extemists who want to ban snowmobiles are a bit out to lunch and have perhaps gotten a bit too stoned.
Mt. Bachelor can lead this evolution and start using 4 stroke snowmobiles that do not blow blue smoke on their own trail system. Skate skiing 20 kilometers and then having ski patrol cruise by and leave a cloud of blue smoke is not my idea of a good time.
Some guy in this area wants it all to be backcountry and to be a wilderness experience and this is should not be. We all have to learn to get along. I was hesitant for years to buy a snowmobile, however I did and it gave me a new understanding of the people who ride them. I have been stuck many times in the middle of nowhere and every time one or a crew of people will stop and help me get unstuck. The friends I have met snowmobiling have become lifelong friends and are not snobs like some of the backcountry trash I have met in the recent two decades.
A lot of folks seem to think that free heeling is something special and end up with some sort of elitist attitudes. So you granola munchers get off your high horses. I am so tired of the advesary attitudes of the free healers that I am likely going to support the Snowmobilers as they are and have been good people all along.
Go to some classes in diplomacy. We can all get along. If you want true backcountry, then load up a pack like I do and bring a tent, bag and food and trek into the real backcountry. Tumalo Mountain is a great place for those who want to climb for a half hour, then get in some turns and go back up, but can be seen from the road so in my opinion is not a true wilderness experience.
So stop whining and go rent a snow machine for a day if you are a free healer and go out and try it before you knock it. I have enjoyed it a lot. I was originally a die hard skier, free healer, backcountry enthusiast but grew very tired of the snobby elitist attitudes of the stereo typical free heel snobs. This town seems to attract a lot of them. If you want people to support you, then support the sport. By the way, Tele Skiing is so damn easy. Lets not get all high and mighty about this being some sport reserved for purists. It makes me sick. Blah. Puke
“American”:
Which diplomacy school did you go to?
I’ll be wanting to avoid that one…
With probably a very few rare exceptions, those of us promoting equal backcountry access arenรข โขt interested in banning snowmobiles, just as most snowmobilers have little desire to shut down other backcountry users.
This issue isnรข โขt based on an elitist attitude or the desire to turn all public lands into wilderness. Rather, it stems from one simple reality: change happens. In this case, that change is population growth. Like it or not, there are now a lot more people interested in accessing the same amount of land than there were ten, or even five years ago. Addressing the issues created by this changeรข “and creating acceptable solutions for all parties involvedรข “is what this is all about.
Non-motorized backcountry users already have places they can go to enjoy a non-motorized experience: wilderness areas. Unfortunately, non-motorized winter access to designated wilderness is exceptionally limited in the Bend area. Strong skiers may be able to access this terrain in a day trip, but for most people, making such a trek requires an overnight excursionรข “something that severely limits access by families and other casual users.
Snowmobiles, especially those developed in recent years, can cover exponentially more ground than even the most athletic skier or snowshoer. Thatรข โขs why it makes sense to designate highly accessible areas like Tumalo to non-motorized activities, while leaving the vast areas just beyond open to snowmobilers and skiers using snowmobiles to access less-used terrain.
But thatรข โขs just the logistical part of the equation. The other factor is something everyone can relate to: simple economics.
Skiing and snowshoeing have been around far longer than chairlifts, gondolas, helicopters, and snowmobiles. In other words, they have existed as free or very low cost activities that are available to a wide range of people. Itรข โขs not important to preserve them as รข elitistรข ย activities, but to preserve them as activities that many people can afford. No one should be forced to have to buy a lift ticket, pay for a trail pass to a groomed ski area, or buy a snowmobile in order to enjoy the snow. This is a reality that may become even more pronounced if current economic trends continue.
While we are all looking to enjoy the snow, each of us is looking for a different type of experience. But no one skiing or snowshoeing on Tumalo is expecting a wilderness experienceรข “with or without a snowmobile presence. Rather, theyรข โขre merely looking for a way to enjoy a great local natural resource without the need to spend time and money they may not have.
With just a little bit of compromise from everyone involved, we can adapt to change and preserve a few of the great reasons we all live here.
Mr. America whimpers about the ski patrol belching a blue haze while he is skate skiing รข ” but believes when he is cracking his own throttle the skiers and snowshoers should be happy he is sharing his exhaust with them.
He laughs about how easy it is to just รข ~grab your pack and head to the real backcountryรข โข to enjoy the รข ~easy tele skiingรข โข available รข ” but now he sits on his duff and goes vroom-vroom-vroom.
He acknowledges (Thank you!) that Tumalo is a รข ~greatรข โข place due to its short approach and wonderful turns – but faults it because it is not a Wilderness. And then he whines about the (bogus) claim that Wilderness designation is being sought for Tumalo.
Hmmmm.
If he rides as irrationally as he argues, itรข โขs all the more reason for skiers and snowshoers to support the Tumalo Backcountry Recreation Zone. The Forest Service will be seeking comment soon folks, youรข โขll need to speak up, or be inundated with hundreds and hundreds of additional machines รข ” their riders (like America) happy to share their exhaust and chaotic behavior with you. Go to http://www.winterwildlands.org and sign on as a Tumalo BRZ supporter, and also visit http://bendbc.com.
Thank you Chris, for your great editorial.
Mr. America whimpers about the ski patrol leaving behind a blue haze while he is skate skiing รข ” but believes when he is cracking his own throttle the skiers and snowshoers should be happy he is sharing his exhaust with them.
He laughs about how easy it is to just รข ~grab your pack and head to the real backcountryรข โข to enjoy the รข ~easy tele skiingรข โข available รข ” but now he sits on his duff and goes vroom-vroom-vroom.
He acknowledges (Thank You!) that Tumalo is a รข ~greatรข โข place due to its short approach and wonderful turns – but faults it because it is not a Wilderness. And then he whines about the (bogus) claim that Wilderness designation is being sought for Tumalo.
Hmmmm.
If he rides as irrationally as he argues, itรข โขs all the more reason for skiers and snowshoers to support the Tumalo Backcountry Recreation Zone. The Forest Service will be seeking comment soon folks, youรข โขll need to speak up, or be inundated with hundreds and hundreds of additional machines รข ” their riders (like America) happy to share their exhaust and chaotic behavior with you. Go to http://www.winterwildlands.org and sign on as a Tumalo BRZ supporter, and also visit http://bendbc.com.
Thank you Chris, for your great editorial.
Okay, skier vs. snowmobiler blah blah blah…how about a fresh perspective. Pop quiz: Tumalo Mountain is uphill (and upstream) from what significant water source? If you guessed “Bridge Creek” you’re right!
Ready for double joepardy? The answer is: The source of Bend’s drinking water. Uhh…What is Bridge Creek?
For years, I have been stupefied that any motorized vehicles are allowed so close to our supply of fresh water. WTF!?
Aside from water pollution, Powder Hound hit the nail on the head. The real pollution: people. We all like to talk about sharing, but when it comes down to it, we are going to have to make some tough decisions about land use.
Perhaps it’s time to borrow a slogan from someplace that has experienced these land-use bouts already. Our friends in nearby “Cool”orado came up with one:
No Vacancy
So since when is backcountry skiing and riding a snow machine a crime? I am truly sick of all the “purists” who seem to think they have the monopoly on the elitist experience of backcountry skiing and tele skiing! We should have to get along and every snowmobiler should have to spend at least a full day on skiis and the Gorp eaters on a snowmobile. This exclusive attitude of who should rule the roost is is the root of the problem. Also Wooden Ski , some Gorp eater who clearly has never ridden a snowmobile makes the assumption that riding a snowmobile is for out of shape people. Being an athlete I wore a heart rate monitor riding powder for four hours on a snowmobile and burned more calories riding and was soaked in sweat at the end of four hours. Just like riding a dirt bike. FYI motocross on a dirt bike is considered one of the most strenuous and hard core sports ever. In racing it tops Cross Country skiing. Riding a snowmobile rigged for off the trail is the same, very serious work out and you better be in excellent shape. Besides I am in better shape than 90% of the Gorp eatin, dope smokin, wine sippin VW bus drivin wanna be hard core backcountry skiers.
So I find it rather hypocritical for Wooden Ski or Wooden Head to judge me and assume that riding a snowmobile takes no effort. Obviously you have never ridden one. I ride one for search and rescue and they are excellent for going into the wilderness at night to rescue psuedo mountain experts that have all the gear from REI but have no idea as to how to use any of it and cannot survive, like those three morons that got killed on Mt. Hood a couple of years ago. Experts? yeah right, climbing in the worst weather month of the year, risking dozens of search and rescue workers lives in the process for being morons.
I know the type of Mr. Wooden Ski. He has all the gear, an avalanche beacon AKA a corpse finder (for 90% who have never learned to use one) have the cool pack with a lot of shit they have no idea how to use, the top of the line gear from the pseudo expert shop and have watched a few videos on how to do all of this stuff which is life threatening. Maybe you should go talk to some of the people who have been rescued out of the wilderness by vroom vroom guys on snow mobiles.
As I am on the topic of you experts on all of this. What business do you have skiing down Tumalo during the worst avalanche days of the year. Obviously you either have a death wish or are just plain stupid. When you have been dug out hopefully by a guy like me with a ton of avi training and are half frozen to death, I am sure you are going to ask me to carry you down the hill on your back as you are so opposed to snowmobiles?
GORP stands for Granola, Oats, Raisins and Peanuts for those of you who did not get it.
Also to character assassinate the snowmobilers without cause is bullshit. Again I stand by snowmobilers as being more of a family than the GORP eaters. In 20 years I have backcountry skied this area and others, gone to avalanche schools and winter camping schools and made more real friends in one season on a snowmobile taking me to the wilderness boundary lines to …..yes….backcountry ski to get in more of a wilderness experience than watching inexperienced morons ski the face of Tumalo when the avalanche risks are at their highest. Oh how I want to spend my outdoor experience digging out MR. Wooden Ski, the know it all expert on what is Zen and what is not.
So if you are going to attack to banter, please know what you are talking about first please. Perhaps the medical marijuana card has rotted your ability to think clearly.
We CAN all get along but that takes compromise. Lets however look at how the X country skiers pushed thru a rule which is now going to be challenged in court, making it impossible for the snowmobilers to get across Tumalo without breaking the law. It was passed without notice and is constitutionally going to be reversed. It is this exact kind of behavior that creates the strife between the two parties.
Mr. Wooden Ski….grow up dude….step away from the bong….
“American”:
I agree with one thing you said:
“It is this exact kind of behavior that creates the strife between the two parties.”
However, my agreement is only that the statement applies to the content of your rant… ahem, I mean comments.
Did you know that the 1990 remapping of Tumalo Mt. was actually done wrong?(illegally). Lawyers as we speak are working to get the entire mt. re “zoned” for snowmobiles like it used to be. This is being done impart due to the absurd statements made by some extremists about other areas they want off limits to snowmobiles. Just so you know Virginia M. snowpark is technically legal for snowmobiles to ride. We do not out of consideration for xc skiers. Keep it up and that might change. Tit for Tat.
“copy what works”:
Threatening backcountry war is not a good idea. Do you realize what snowmobiliers have at stake with Kapka Butte still being negotiated? Do you seriously think you are improving the public dialog with such comments? I suspect you’re not involved within your own sports community. I respectfully suggest you consider changing that.
If you only knew how involved I am. And it is certainly not a threat but an option. An option the motorsports community does not want to pursue. But some time extreme measures must be taken to be taken seriouslsy. Look into the legalities of the closure of Tumalo back in 1990. Your side would probably react with eco terrorism had it been done to your sport. Get the facts before you commit to a cause.
Who says I have a “cause”? I’m just pointing out to you that some marauding snowmachines blasting through Meissner would be just what your sport doesn’t need – create loads of ill will and be something to mobilize the opposition. Maybe it would get really bad, some little kid could be run down. Consider what that would do for the sports image and how much more difficult things would get.
Think it through. Keep it civil. You know as well as I do there’s impressionable hot heads on both sides. Let’s not encourage them to ruin things for everyone.
Legally snowmachines can be in Meissner. We can not ride parrallel to the tracks but can LEGALLY cross them at 90 degrees (Look at the Forest service approved map). I say again we do not out of courtesy. It is time the other side was courteous to us. I slow down for xc skiers, I am one myself. I have also taken injured skiers out of the backcountry. I do not advocate the use of meissner for snowmobiles. But I know lots of pissed off sledders ready to do so this year just to “prove a point”. It is guys like Dale Neubauer with wild wilderness that are the backcountry skiers worst enemy. Get rid of that kook and maybe the sled heads will calm down. PS you should mention to your friends that flipping off a snowmachine does not help either. There are some sledders out there that poach the backcountry and give us a bad name . Just like the extremists like neubauer do for xc and backcountry skiers. There is plenty of room for all of us. By the way Nordic trails are groomed by snowmobiles. What?
Just as we have seen in the last election where Obama won. We have extremists ruining it for all.
It is like the dialog between Rush Limbaugh and Howard Stern. There is no winning, but most of America is truly in the middle and tired of all the whining. If we are to ban snowmobiles due to two stroke oil smoke, then lets shut down the timber industry as well as it is run on chainsaws and heavy machinery which upsets the natural setting of the land. The arguement made by the GORP eaters is pathetic. Snowmobilers are great people and the GORP eaters write them all of as gun toting republicans who polute the environment without question and is far from the truth as Bush being our best president ever. Laughable.
Neubauer and his crew of hitler youth are some died in the wool purists yet drive their suburbans up to the mountain and spew their toxic venom on the roads poluting for all the rest of us. It is an extermist mentality as if preaching for McCain and Palin being the solution for our great nation.
I am a GORP eater and a snowmobiler and have most likely skied more backcountry than any wanna be who sits on his or her high horse. I am so sick and tired of this elitist attitude as being the uber mensch. We can try to get along, but it is full of misconceptions of what either party is into. And Wooden Ski obviously has never ridden a snowmobile as he makes it out to be some lazy mans sport. Go rent one and bring your skis and enjoy some real backcountry. Climbing up Tumalo is not backcountry nor extreme nor some feat. Try skiing the route from Dutchman Flat to Sisters in a weekend over the mountains and then come back and tell me how they compare.
Also you do not HAVE TO SKI where snowmobilers are either, so give it a rest. Please make it comfy for all of us.
Captain America Strikes again. Love it or leave it
Thank god Obama won as this means change for all of us and we are all going to have to learn to adapt to eachother, show some more tolerance. The GORP eaters, pseudo intellectuals I am referring to in my posts are not the norm skiers, but the armchair experts who have all the hot gear, but do not know shit about what they are talking about and preach some double standard. Unless you are a purely electric car, charging your batteries from a wind mill please save me the rhetoric
d
God almighty people, here we go again. You cross country skiing and snow-shoe radicals crack me up. You have literally Thousands upon Thousands of designated wilderness areas to do enjoy the winter outdoors where you have no competition from anyone but yourselves. Again you want to close tumalo to all motorized forms of recreation. You people are all alike… Yes, you have more area than anyone else, but you WANT IT ALL… Just like the baby boomers… Your greed is sad and I hope you spend all your retirement money to lose the lawsuit.
Grow up and share.
There are extremists on both sides of this issue. The bottom line, we are all backcountry users. My family and I ski, snowboard, Nordic (skate and classic) and snowmobile and don’t put the interests of one over the other.
When people stop worrying about us vs. them and just go out and have fun they will be a lot happier. Snowmobiles are a great way to access areas for all users – the number of tow-in skiers and boarders I come across grows every year.
In the case of Tumalo – The current access plan was created by a group of skiers and snowmobilers, with careful consideration to the needs and wants of all stakeholders. This was a great example of what can happen when concerned, considerate and levelheaded groups get together to craft a realistic plan.
As for Kapka, I am part of a growing group that will oppose the construction of the new Sno-Park and will push for expansion of Dutchman – this really makes the most sense for everyone.
My advice – stop worrying and go out and have fun, and enjoy the fact that others are too. With all the bickering and complaining nobody wins. Believe it or not, there are some fringe groups actually pushing for the complete closure of some of these areas. If we canรข โขt get along they might actually succeed. That will be the real tragedy.
Finally some sane individuals. Keep up the fight. I too enjoy GORP. What?
Why is it that when I am riding down the trail some “GORP” puts a large chunk of ice in the middle of the trail for me to hit, or my son, or my daughter. But yet I am the bad guy cause I ride a sled? That is strange.
A person would say,”oh, that’s just a bad apple doing something like that, I would never intend on killing your daughter”. OK, maybe it wasn’t you but maybe its your hate filled thoughts, words, blogs that drive the person that puts that large chunk of ice in the middle of the trail.
I ride my sled with half my family while my wife takes the other half cross country skiing or snow shoeing. Do I hate her because of what she is doing, does she hate me because of what I am doing, ridiculous!
The point is, you don’t hate what I do and I don’t hate what you do, why can’t it be that easy?
I would also like to quote Dr. Andres Soom who participated in the University of Wisconsin’s comprehensive three-year study on the effects of snowmobile sound levels.
“Deer consistently bedded near snowmobile trails and fed along them even when those trails were used for snowmobiling several times daily. In addition, fresh deer tracks were repeatedly observed on snowmobile trails shortly after machines had passed by, indicating that deer were not driven from the vicinity of these trails… The reaction of deer to a man walking differed markedly from their reaction to a man on a snowmobile… This decided tendency of deer to run with the approach of a human on foot, in contrast to their tendency to stay in sight when approached by a snowmobiler, suggests that the deer responded to the machine and not to the person riding it.”
And I know there are several studies of stress levels of animals when the snow machines are around but very few that compare cross country skiers to snowmobiles.
Why canรข โขt everyone get along? I snowboard and i snowmobile do I hate on people for their choice of winter sport no! Far too often are people taking extremist views on how things should be. Snowmobiles have such strict restrictions on emissions and sound levels that they have negligible impact on the environment. Running a lawnmower for one hour is far worse for the environment than a snowmobiling for five. My snowmobile has allowed me access to far greater backcountry riding then I would have if I hade to hike in. but do I always take my sled? no I still love hiking to the middle of no were, where the only sound that I hear is the crisp crunch of the snow beneath my feet and the wishhh of powder under my board.
People saying that sleds should move further down and donรข โขt see the big deal. Think if the sledders told you to move down the road to a different site you would be enraged too. No one likes being kicked out of an area that they already know and love, thatรข โขs why they keep coming back to the same spot, because they know and love the riding that the area has to offer.
It has not happened to me but I have heard of skiers (general term not bashing them in particular) deliberately sabotaging snowmobile trails with ice and other foreign debris. Letรข โขs think about this how could this be a good idea, to keep them off the trail and for your own personal use you are willing to risk manslaughter charges and possibly attempted murder! How are you going to shred some power in the slammer and how you could sleep at night knowing that you are intentionally trying to harm a fellow human and outdoor enthusiast? When this happens on a snowmobile trail, nothing really happens thereรข โขs rarely an investigation unless someone has been seriously injured but if a snowmobile was to do something to a skiers area, I can almost guarantee that all snowmobiles would be ban from one incident.
Thatรข โขs my rant and that being said everyone should share the trail, share the area and enjoy the winter. I do both and love both I know I could not chose which is better so until you give them both a chance I think it is unfair to judge which is right and which is wrong.
BUILD KAPAKA BUTTE SNO-PARK!
XC-Skiers and snowshoers have FIVE differant sno-park to access the wilderness from. Snowmobilers have THREE. If you want to stop us from parking at Dutchman, that makes TWO sno-parks for us to acess from.
Where would you like us to park because we WILL park somewhere!
Also, I remember that when snowmobilers gave up most of dutchmans flat, part of the deal was that a new sno-park would be built.
Now, we have held up are part of the deal, You need to hold up your part.
Hey wooden ski you still out there? Or did you realize how foolish and extreme your views are? If I see you on Tumalo I will wave and hope you too enjoy the woods. PS I hope you xc skiers are walking up to Dutchman from town. WHAT?
I ski, snowshoe, snowboard, snowmobile, eat granola, eat steak, own a truck and a subaru.
I agree very much with Powder Hound’s comment about how the restricted Wilderness areas are located too far away from access. What percentage of winter recreational users are able to snowshoe or skin miles and miles into the backcountry and still have enough time and energy to hit the turns they want? Or how many people really have the equipment, knowledge or logistic ability to camp overnight in the mountains in the winter? Very, very few.
So why is it that the ski/snowshoe only wilderness areas are far from parking areas, and the places where snowmobilers are allowed are close to parking areas? Shouldn’t that be reversed. Non-motorized users could have more of the areas close-in, and motorized users could be allowed to use more of the harder to reach areas.
Open up some of the wilderness areas to snowmobilers, and then see if they aren’t a lot more willing to concede some of the closer in stuff like Tumalo. Maybe that would leave everyone better off.
For those who want a ‘real wilderness experience’ and might be upset about snowmobiles gaining access to current wilderness areas. Realize that if you want a real wilderness experience, you’re probably going to have to drive further than 30 minutes away from town, that’s just reality. Sorry.
When you have as many outdoor people as we have in central oregon, you can’t expect to be alone, or have a right to total quiet, when you’re that close to town. The Wanoga/Edison/Bachelor/Dutchman/Three Creeks area is the outdoor family fun center for central oregon. If you want solitude, go somewhere further away. Maybe try Umatill, the Strawberries, or even the Ochocos.
Troy,
Good point. There is ALOT of areas that are within the wildnerness boundry that I would LOVE to hit with my sled. Maybe If the “powers that be” were willing to free up 50 square miles around brokentop and the 3 sisters, I would concede my gripe. Good luck with getting that through the gorp agenda….
On the 7th day, god went snowmobiling……….
I agree. We would gladly give up Tumalo for the areas we used to be able to sled. Tam Mc Rim ETC. But the Gorp agendy wants it all. Some even want snowmobiles banned state wide! I am not making that up…
If you sledders want your areas to stay open, join a snowmobile club and support the Blue Ribbon Coalition. That is our collective legal voice in D.C.
Now it’s time to smell the sweetness of two stroke. WHAT?
I recently sat in a meeting with David Blare and reps from both user groups. The purpose of the meeting was to try to see if we could come up with some alternatives to this very old issue. Guess what….two of the four so called back country skiers (BCS) minds were closed like a steel traps. They would not even consider talking about anything but closing Tumalo to just them. The other half of the BCS group was a pleasure to work with.
Sadly the web sites and promotion is from the group with the closed minds. It’s sad to see that BCS have an enemy within.
As a snowmobiler I would be happy to work with any open minded person who really wanted what was best for their sport and not just what is best for them personally. The entire issue is not about how far a snowmobile can travel but is really about elevation. We can have all the snow parks we want but if they are all below snow line most of the year they are of no value to anyone.
Snowmobilers built Dutchman Snow Park with their own money and time. Why should they be locked out of the only high elevation snow park in the area? Share what we have with each other. End of tune.
I don’t understand why the snow park people can’t just plow about 300 yrds of the exising HW for snowmobile (trailer) parking and leave the Dutchman lot to vehicles without trailers. That would open up enough spaces for the skiers (the gear made for a Tumalo decent is not your father’s X-Country ski!) and let the throttle jockies have as much parking as there already is today at Dutchman.
I use the lot all the time and can say that’s where the issue is. It’s not about getting run over by slednecks or having a nature lovefest right at the base of Mt Bachelor.