I never miss one of Lars Larson’s little commentaries on the Oregon Catalyst site. They’re some of the best free entertainment on the Web.
In his most recent entry, Lars warns of a sneaky plot by the Obama administration to ban bullets.
Well, it wasn’t exactly the Obama administration that wanted to ban bullets – it was some conservationist groups. And they didn’t want to ban all bullets, only lead bullets.
The conservationists don’t want to get rid of lead bullets because they’re against guns or against hunting, but because lead is very toxic stuff. Birds and mammals – including bald eagles and rare and endangered California condors – feed on the carcasses of animals killed with lead bullets and die of lead poisoning.
But Lars doesn’t mention any of this; instead he sees the effort to eliminate lead ammunition as a “backdoor” attack on Americans’ Second Amendment rights.
A lead bullet ban, he fumes, “would make all ammunition much more expensive. It will make it more expensive for folks to own guns, practice with guns, and even shoot guns. It will make it more expensive for folks to arm themselves as the Constitution guarantees.”
Fortunately, Lars goes on, this sneak attack on our precious liberties was foiled: The Environmental Protection Agency turned down the conservationists’ plea to ban lead bullets “because there was so much public outcry.”
“Another win against the Obamanation,” Lars crows. Poison a condor for freedom today!
UPDATE: According to the right-wing Weekly Standard blog, the EPA is still considering enacting a ban on lead bullets. Well, this wouldn’t be the first time Lars has gotten his facts wrong.
This article appears in Aug 26 – Sep 1, 2010.
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If we ban lead bullets, the terrorists win.
Condors and Bald Eagles hunt and eat live prey.
I didn’t mean to say condors do not eat carcases, but come on, knock it offf, where is the lead bullet slaughter feast? This was not about huntung his was about handguns and everyone knows it.
But Larry, you haven’t been listening. There is no terrorist threat! We brought all this on ourselves, remember? All we have to do is show the world how much we think of our progressive thinking and we will be fine. Maybe another blame-Bush apology tour of the world_ and federal funds for a ground zero mosque will help too.
“But Lars doesn't mention any of this”
Doesn’t have to. The chances of an eagle or condor dying of lead poisoning from this would be statistically insignificant, despite the “forensic” evaluations of a few condors conducted by biased scientists.
When a game animal is shot, it is either retained by the hunter and eaten (funny no reports of hunters dying from lead poisoning), or in the case of some small game is left in the field. However, unless it is killed with a shotgun, the bullet will pass through the small game animal, posing no threat to some passerby condor. This bogus lead poisoning theory also relies upon the notion that there are millions of sportsman killed game animals littering the desert, which is simply not true. searching for and finding a hunter kill lying fallow in the dust somewhere is akin to finding the proverbial needle in a haystack.
lars and the other rush limbaugh wanna-bes are not worth the time to turn the radio on….waste of time…
No, M. Cooley, both condors and bald eagles eat carrion. We all know how much the right wing likes to distort reality these days, but it’s a pretty basic, stone-cold, absolute total true fact that both birds eat carrion. Condors, in particular, eat carrion. And just to be extra, extra, extra super-duper clear, the word ‘carrion’ means ‘dead animals’. Condors especially have to eat dead animals because they have no sense of smell and so they use their good eyes to follow other scavenging birds.
Bald eagles prefer seafood, but they will eat carrion readily, if it’s there to eat and there’s no fish or crab handy. Golden eagles, in fact, are really the only birds bold enough to fight a condor over a carcass.
In more stone-cold-basic-factoid news, lead poisoning was one of the top three reasons the condors almost went extinct last century.
But hey, what’s the point of even laying out the most basic of facts anymore? If the right-wing Thought Police Cabal tells its captive audience the sky is green, then the sky is a lustrous, glorious, emerald green.
It is a backdoor effort to ban guns and attack our 2nd amendment rights. “Conservationists” are nothing but a bunch of liberals trying to push their own agenda.
Clean up congress,vote with lead
“And they didn’t want to ban all bullets, only lead bullets”
Bruce, give us a brand name and caliber of a bullet that does not contain lead??
you dont get it,and Lar’s doesn’t get it.the elitist b@stard’s are using environmentalism to try and disarm us to obtain their objective.global government,tyranny. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWW2CE0l7k8
Here are some additional facts for Mr. Bastion. It appears that lead poisoning is only one of the alleged culprits in condor mortality.
Here is a list of the others cited, along with my proposed solution:
Predation from golden eagles, coyotes, and ravens (Solution: more hunting)
Power lines(Solution: Rubber booties for the condors)
Accidental drowning (Solution: Lifejackets for the birds)
Ehtylene glycol poisoning. Clearly these ARE the majestic, wild birds we are led to believe if they are chugging anti-freeze out of the drain pan in somebody’s back yard. We should ban cars just to be safe
Aspiration. (Solution: Stimulus $$ to hire dedicated people trained in bird Heimlich. If no training is available, a government sponsored training program should be established at once)
Cancer: (Solution: Not sure, because providing chemotherapy drugs would support evil big pharma)
Malnutrition: (Solution: Again, more hunting to create more food for the birds)
Now keep in mind that Miller is calling Lars Larson crazy for opposing a lead ammunition ban. However, the real perspective comes when one considers that this is an effort to protect 46 condors. Not millions, not thousands, FORTY FREAKING SIX. A lead ammo ban would cost 120 jobs in Bend alone, and thousands more on a national scale. Now that’s crazy.
Hey, chill out there, buckaroos! There are bullets still available for purchase! And they can make bullets out of tungsten, nowadays, actually. They make a bullet out of tungsten and encase it in a plastic that withstands great heat, and then you got yourself a bullet. Or you can make a steel bullet. Or you can make a bullet out of depleted uranium. Sure, those on a low income can’t afford that last type of bullet, but luckily for our national security the Pentagon gets 25% of the U.S.A.’s budget and can afford gobs of them.
BUT THEY CAN MAKE BULLETS OUT OF OTHER MATERIALS THAN LEAD.
You know why we really don’t have to make bullets out of lead no more, right-wingers? Well they have this thing, it’s called TECHNOLOGY, and it advances. It would advance faster, but we keep having to stop the whole country and plug pacifiers into the wailing mouths of our right wing every time anything remotely modern happens. And that’s why we’re now behind the rest of the world in–to take just one technological example–clean energy. China is skyrocketing ahead with electric cars, Japan is building magnetic trains, a car is coming out of France that runs on compressed air. Meanwhile, in this country, we have to stop the presses to patiently explain to the right wing things like… “There there, little campers, it’s okay, they’ll still make bullets, just not out of lead, there are other metals and plastics and rubbers and ways and means of making bullets. Now run along and get your jammies on and go back to beddy bye.”
It’s just not the cowboy years anymore. In spite of the right wing mistaking an alcoholic rich kid Yale graduate for a cowboy, in spite of the right wing mistaking a befuddled B-movie actor for a cowboy, we’re not actually living in The Old West and we don’t need to melt lead over campfires to make bullets anymore. Nobody has taken away your guns. They didn’t shut down all the gun factories and they didn’t shut down all the bullet factories. They even had a bullet factory explode in Bend and it’s up-and-running again. So it’s all okay! Go back inside! Watch some more Fox News on your hi-def televisions! Try and stay put! At least until Glenn Beck spots an unmarked helicopter, bursts into tears, and shrieks for everyone to grab their gold and run into the streets with wet towels over their heads.
And Mr. Jegglie: about 10 million birds of 75 different species die of lead poisoning each year. And plenty of other animals and fish as well. When you spray lead everywhere it doesn’t necessarily matter if you take home a carcass. Or you might just litter your shell casings like hunters do. Anyway, there’s been well over 500 studies done on the effects of lead on wildlife, you can Google them endlessly. There’s even a hunting group led by hunters called Project Gutpile which tries to educate other hunters and anglers about not using lead. There was a study in North Dakota where they found people eating wild game had about 50% more lead in their bodies than people who didn’t. And lead is a particularly dangerous neurotoxin for !?!?!GUESS WHAT KIND OF HUMAN!?!?! Yes, you guessed it, the fetal kind. Seems like I heard something somewhere about the right wing wanting to protect fetuses…
So why not switch over to tungsten bullets, or steel bullets, or copper bullets, or…?
“Bruce, give us a brand name and caliber of a bullet that does not contain lead??”
Here’s a whole page full of ’em, found in about six seconds with Google: http://www.ventanaws.org/species_condors_lead/bullets/
FYI, even the US military is using non-lead bullets now: http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature Articles/GreenBullets/GreenBullets.htm
It’s really funny when you get a “gun rights defender” who obviously doesn’t know squat about guns.
“However, the real perspective comes when one considers that this is an effort to protect 46 condors. Not millions, not thousands, FORTY FREAKING SIX.”
Duh … that’s the POINT, Einstein. If there were millions of condors we wouldn’t need to worry about a few being killed by lead poisoning.
“A lead ammo ban would cost 120 jobs in Bend alone,”
You’re talking through yer arse. I assume you’re referring to Nosler. Why wouldn’t they just switch to manufacturing bullets out of copper or other metals? Or they could continue to make lead bullets for countries that allow them and make other bullets for the US market.
“But hey, what’s the point of even laying out the most basic of facts anymore? If the right-wing Thought Police Cabal tells its captive audience the sky is green, then the sky is a lustrous, glorious, emerald green.”
Exactly how I feel. Why bother? The loonies will believe what their idols (Beck, Limbaugh, Palin et al.) tell them to believe and simply ignore any evidence to the contrary, or dismiss it as not legitimate (cf. Jegglie’s remark about “biased scientists” — he doesn’t even know who they are, but their conclusions are not in line with what he wants to believe, so they must be “biased”).
“And Mr. Jegglie: about 10 million birds of 75 different species die of lead poisoning each year. And plenty of other animals and fish as well. When you spray lead everywhere it doesn’t necessarily matter if you take home a carcass. Or you might just litter your shell casings like hunters do. Anyway, there’s been well over 500 studies done on the effects of lead on wildlife, you can Google them endlessly. There’s even a hunting group led by hunters called Project Gutpile which tries to educate other hunters and anglers about not using lead. There was a study in North Dakota where they found people eating wild game had about 50% more lead in their bodies than people who didn’t. And lead is a particularly dangerous neurotoxin for !?!?!GUESS WHAT KIND OF HUMAN!?!?! Yes, you guessed it, the fetal kind. Seems like I heard something somewhere about the right wing wanting to protect fetuses…
So why not switch over to tungsten bullets, or steel bullets, or copper bullets, or…? ”
Nice cut and paste of the exact same thing you posted on the Oregon catalyst site, merely exchanging Mr. Jegglie for Lars. Makes me wonder where you originally plagerized this text from. Try to have an original thought.
I’m not gonna jump into the “right wing vs. left wing” rhetorical spitball fight. Ya’ll can have that if you want it, but it’s counter productive to anyone’s best interests, unless you’re Glenn Beck or Jon Stewart.
Here are a few facts without the bias:
Fact 1 – with the possible (and debatable) exception of the condors, no species of bird or mammal is being decimated by lead bullets or shot. Yes, some are dying. But it is not in hordes, and compared to the death toll exacted by most other human activities, it’s pretty insignificant. Wanna know how many animals are killed by automobiles every year? Or how many fly into windmills?
Fact 2 – lead alternatives are available on a limited basis. They are generally much more expensive than standard, bargain-basement lead bullets. For rifle bullets, the options are really limited to copper and gilding metal (copper and tin). Tungsten is still experimental, and was recently rejected by the US Military and National Park Service because in certain conditions it can become a carcinogen and is less stable than lead. While it is used to make lead-free shotgun pellets, it will likely not become a widely used rifle or handgun bullet.
Fact 3 – Availability of non-lead ammo components is extremely limited. Not only are there only a couple of companies actually making lead-free hunting bullets (Barnes, Nosler, Hornady), supplies are short and the manufacturers are not able to keep up with demand. Increasing that demand through a legislated ban would cause severe shortages. Lead-free options for many calibers do not even exist at this time, and because of the number and variety of bullets in current use, will likely never exist on a commercial level.
Fact 4 – there are about 200 condors in the wild, not 46.
Fact 5 – The North Dakota/CDC research into the effects of lead-harvested game on humans showed NO significant increase of lead in the test population. The slight increase in some of the participants was well below any “level of concern” by even the most conservative standards of the CDC. This was consistent with the findings of researchers studying First Nation Cree in Canada. Despite a lifetime of subsistence hunting (almost all of their meat was hunted and killed using lead shot or bullets), there was no incidence of related lead toxicity. The bottom line is, there is no appreciable risk to human health.
Fact 6 – The problem with lead bullets for carrion-eaters is the fragments, not the entire bullet. Fragments are known to spread widely through a carcass following expansion. These fragments are then eaten as the scavengers eat the offal left at a kill site. Research in Minnesota demonstrated that several types of lead projectiles, such as shotugn slugs, muzzleloader bullets, and “bonded core” bullets are relatively safe, since they do not fragment significantly.
These are basic fact… not party line propaganda. Lead shot and bullets are simply not the great evil they’ve been portrayed to be. That doesn’t mean that the environmental organizations who started this debate are out to ban guns or hunting (although many organizations who have rallied to the lead-ban movement certainly ARE out to ban both).
The decision to use lead or lead-alternatives should be left to the individual. For those hunters who are really concerned about the effect of their ammo on other creatures, some alternatives exist. If it’s available and affordable, then it makes sense to switch. Many hunters are doing exactly that. However, until the cost and availability are equal to lead, this should remain a choice for those who are concerned and who can afford to switch.
Mr. Jegglie, I cut and pasted the exact same thing on the Oregon Catalyst site and I know the facts I know because (A) I didn’t really feel like typing the same response twice and (B) my family has put in a lot of wilderness time with Fish & Game jobs, moose hunting in Alaska from the time me and my brothers were kids, and as forest fire fighters, and so the household here maintains an idle interest in wilderness factoids, especially ones that concern the health of the great outdoors and those who enjoy it, and those species that are native to it.
Why not just admit your arguments were TOTALLY DESTROYED instead of blustering some nonsense about apparently nefarious cut-and-paste jobs and ‘original thoughts’. How about having thoughts that make sense? And Philip, you’ve either gotten ahold of a fictionalized right-wing retelling of that North Dakota study, or a different study altogether. People who live off wild game were found to have 50% higher lead levels than people who didn’t. And lead is most dangerous to fetuses. It doesn’t necessarily KILL fetuses, or humans, but it does make for birth defects, maybe Alzheimers, etc. etc. etc. blah blah blah….somehow I get the feeling I’m talking to people who only hear what they want to hear from Beck, Limbaugh, Larson, Palin, Hannity, Fox etc. etc. etc. and that there’s little point in saying much of anything to that 25% of the nation.
“It’s really funny when you get a “gun rights defender” who obviously doesn’t know squat about guns.”
Not sure about ARC Burn, but I do know “squat” about guns. Lifetime shooter and hunter, worked in the shooting sports industry for 9 years, along with military experience as a unit armorer. By all means, please share your extensive background in the field.
“Duh … that’s the POINT, Einstein. If there were millions of condors we wouldn’t need to worry about a few being killed by lead poisoning.”
This is the point. There will never be millions of them. There probably never were millions of them. There are only 46. Actually only 22 if the 24 already covered by the CA ban are backed out of the equation. That does not, under any circumstance, justify upending an entire American industry.
“You’re talking through yer arse. I assume you’re referring to Nosler. Why wouldn’t they just switch to manufacturing bullets out of copper or other metals? Or they could continue to make lead bullets for countries that allow them and make other bullets for the US market.”
Nosler already makes all copper products, but very few. Try to think like a capitalist for a moment, if all-copper bullets were equal to jacketed, lead core bullets, wouldn’t bullet manufacturers already be making them due to existing demand? Non lead core don’t fly as far or as straight and underperform on terminal ballistics. And they’re much more expensive (Lars’ point). Nosler’s business would decline, hurting a company which has brought fresh revenue into the Central Oregon community for a half century. There is no good reason to compel Nosler and its employees to endure hardship for the sake of 22 birds.
“biased scientists”
I have also worked in the science field, I have seen the way the grant process works. Its a never ending cycle of grant-study-partial solution-grant-study-partial solution. I understand that scientific discovery takes place by bolting little bits of discovery on to the knowledge base. But lets just suppose for a minute that there was no such thing as global warming, or spotted owls actually do quite well in second growth. If either of those things were found to be true, lots of gravy train scientists would be looking for work. Too much science seems to be less about the findings and more about self preservation and agendas.
Interesting to see how far afield this discussin has gone, but te original point of HBM was that Lars claimed the request to ban the lead ammo was part of a plot by the administration to get around the second amendment. What can one expect from the mindset of someone who doubts the president’s citizenship?
Internet research is a bitch–but Phillip’s numbers are more current than anyone elses.
Clifford–take a chill pill. Hysteria gets you no where when you argue with Jegglie about something he knows, and he knows guns. I’m no fan of crazy gun owners, but owning a gun doesn’t make me crazy.
The two studies everyone seems to be referencing are at http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=wild-game-deer-venison-condors-meat-lead-ammunition-ban and http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/hunting/lead/index.html. The levels aren’t such that any illnesses in humans are tied to them so EPA and CDC are never going to touch this hot button issue. Still, a bird that potentially lives to be sixty like the condo and that lives on carrion will ultimately ingest a significant amount of lead. It has been definitively linked to a number of bird deaths–but ten million? Christ, where did that number come from? Please, Clifford, calmly state the source–i detest name calling.
If lead bullets were outlawed, imagine how many gun owners might be arrested using lead bullets purchased previously. Compare: In 1994, the U.S. Justice Department under Attorney General Janet Reno proposed introducing legislation that would allow U.S. Government “summary forfeiture” of unregistered firearms. DOJ intended to eliminate government’s high costs of forfeiture proceedings required to confiscate guns (by baring gun owners from being able to prove) their confiscated weapons were legally registered or did not come under the “technical definition” of a gun that must be registered. A Government ban on lead bullets would bring gun owners to the same place. Also in 1994 the Justice Dept proposed gun legislation that included the words “premises containing illegal weapons” written like drug asset forfeiture laws. In less than 24-hours gun owners expressed concern those words “premises containing illegal weapons” would open the door for DOJ to criminally and civilly forfeit gun owners' homes since most gun owners kept guns at home. Had that legislation passed, it is foreseeable Americans would be afraid to own guns or keep them in their house.
In 1994, a Congressman suggested forcing gun stores to sell only “biodegradable ammunition” with a 1-year shelf-life stating – in case of insurrection, ammunition accumulated by people would become useless within 1-year. Then someone pointed out, forcing biodegradable ammunition on the public would open the door for foreign black-market ammunition to be sold in the U.S. Obviously if Obama's ban on lead bullets is approved, foreign black markets will develop in the U.S. for lead bullets; that will lead to police swat raids on homes for illegal bullets just like drug raids now out of control. It is foreseeable anyone caught with possession of lead bullets could lose their right to own a gun. Bullets made of any other metal could prove too expensive for most gun owners to purchase. It is obvious Obama by the backdoor – intends to disarm America taking Americans' ammunition away.
What’s this right-wing paranoid fascination with ‘Obama’s backdoor means’? Is it something to do with Ken Mehlman coming out of the closet? Has this caused a ripple of worry throughout the right wing? Are they now all frightened that tomorrow morning they might wake up gay?
Naw, Cramer, I don’t need to take a chill pill. I’m completely relaxed in the knowledge I’m absolutely correct in this debate, and that I’ve stated nothing but fact. Actually, I more feel like I’ve taken a bottle of sleeping pills coming on here tonight. The debate is starting to get a bit boring, the way debates with right-wingers do. At first it’s great fun to pummel right-wingers’ stupefying ignorance into the ground, but then right-wingers never admit to their stupefying ignorance, so it becomes like chewing a dozen packs of gum at once: tiring, and makes for a headache. I guess this is the right wing’s secret tactic for world domination: wear the liberals out with insistent, unyielding, stupefying ignorance.
Anyway, Jegglie doesn’t sound like an expert gunsman to me, he sounds like any other case-of-beer-toting shootist my Dad used to cite for poaching, back in my Dad’s Fish & Game days. I hesitate mentioning that, because now we’ll get to hear in the next post some stupefying right-wing ignorance about how Fish & Game is a communist plot to turn the wilderness into a socialist state. But whatever. Point being, Jegglie sounds like the typical hunter who doesn’t give a fig about the animals he’s blowing away. If he did know anything about wildlife, he wouldn’t have said that stupefyingly ignorant thing about how no birds get lead poisoning because hunters always take their kills home.
Okay…like…okay, for example, one of the most basic things about waterfowl is that they swallow tiny pebbles to help their digestion, and a lot of them get lead poisoning by mistaking bird shot for the tiny pebbles. So that’s one way a bird can get…
But I’m not going on into the dozens of different ways a bird can get lead poisoned, because it’s late, I got better things to do, and it’s pointless. And Cramer, I’m also not going to hand you on a platter the source for that ’10 million birds die across 75 species from lead poisoning each year’ fact. I’m going to make you work for it. I’m going to invite all the right-wingers in this debate to do their own research for once. Here’s how: y’all go on your Google search engines, you type in ‘how many birds die from lead poisoning each year’ and then you read all 650,000 entries that come up on the subject, and eventually the ’10 million birds a year dead from lead’ fact will arise, and eventually you’ll all learn a lot about lead poisoning and why lead bullets should be discontinued.
Or not. You are, after all, the right wing. You’ll probably read all 650,000 Google entries about how many birds die each year from lead poisoning…and then you’ll decide that the 650,000 entries were about the face of Jesus appearing in toast.
“eventually the ’10 million birds a year dead from lead’ fact will arise”
No, Clifford, eventually the 10 million bird CLAIM will arise. There never seems to be a source of the claim–just continual cross postings such as those ‘proving’ Obama was born in Kenya. Claims such as this–statements that 10 million hunters and their families MIGHT be at risk–all are intended to elicit a response. They do. Reading the same falsehood a thousand times–the same claim 10 million times–doesn’t make it true or a fact. According to Sibley (http://www.sibleyguides.com/conservation/causes-of-bird-mortality/) windows kill almost a billion birds. Should we ban glass? This is what’s known as a sourced claim, by the way, and lead poisoning doesn’t register a blip in this study from 2003. Call me all the names you want, but smug superiority isn’t an effective response to a question.
Lead shot was banned for duck hunting because Obama wants to take our guns. Plain & simple.
Science is Satan!
I’m not certain why so many rednecks worry about losing their precious America to an ‘outsider’ when they are doing a fine job of destroying themselves with their lack of intelligence.
Teabaggers and the Taliban: nothing like extreme stupidity to give you a good laugh – or cry.
Joe w,
In your case, I’d say that ‘knowledge is satan!’ as well. The ban on lead bird shot began with a phase out in the 1970’s–and was finalized in 1991. Now in that entire period it was Republicans–except for the four Carter years, and Obama was still waiting in the wings for his planned takeover.
In a 2003 Fish and Wildlife article, http://www.fws.gov/contaminants/DisplayNews.cfm?NewsID=4DAA500C-3E21-4564-87AA714E9E301C9E, the positive effects of the ban were described and one can only assume things have gotten better for waterfowl as the ban has continued.
The discussion here is about lead and lead-free bullets.
“Anyway, Jegglie doesn’t sound like an expert gunsman to me, he sounds like any other case-of-beer-toting shootist my Dad used to cite for poaching, back in my Dad’s Fish & Game days. I hesitate mentioning that, because now we’ll get to hear in the next post some stupefying right-wing ignorance about how Fish & Game is a communist plot to turn the wilderness into a socialist state.”
1. You still fail to explain why upending an entire American industry for the sake of 22 birds, (that according to my research, have a hard time getting out of their own way let alone potential lead poisoning), is a good idea.
2. I handle weapons for a living.
3. I don’t drink.
4. I detest law breaking poachers and relish every opportunity I have ever had to turn them in.
5. I think the ODFW does a good job.
6. “Fish and Game” citations are issued by the State Police.
7. I have enough respect for the game animals I pursue to use the best quality, most humane products available which are lead core bullets.
Where the hell does the “22 birds” number come from?
Cramer needs his hand held. Step One: type ’10 million birds a year die of lead poisoning’ into your Google search engine. Step Two: Read all 308,000 possible sources for the fact. Step Three: Since you’re so keen to debunk, then debunk all 308,000 possible sources of that fact for us, at which point you can claim it as a ‘claim’.
Anyway, Cramer himself says the ’10 million’ number is insignificant, because a billion birds a year die from running into windows. Which is a little like saying that nothing matters and we needn’t make any effort because after all Jesus is coming soon.
I cherish my ‘smug superiority’ to right wingers, thanks. They are wrong about things 98% of the time. At this point in history the right wing has become the cancer of America, and they stop us from becoming a better nation and leading the world to a better place at every possible turn. Like two-year olds dragging along behind momma’s shopping cart. And these days it’s every single little itty bitty detail that’s a MAJOR STICKING POINT OF TOTAL RIGHT WING HYSTERIA IN ALL CAPS, as evidenced by the nonsense above.
Whassa matta wittle whitey wing wings? Don’t wanna invent a bettah buwwet?
I have to go but I’ll come back and finish annhiliating the right wing side of this debate later, time (and the real world) permitting.
“Where the hell does the “22 birds” number come from?”
Status of the California Condor and mortality factors affecting recovery
Endangered Species Update, July-August, 2001 by Kelly J. Sorenson, L. Joseph Burnett, James R. Davis
24 of the 46 birds in the wild are already covered by the CA ban, leaving a grand total of 22. Besides, it could be 2,222 and it would not be enough to justify putting people out of work.
“And I believe you have not made the case that a ban on lead bullets would “upend” any American industry. It might inconvenience it, yeah, but it would hardly be catastrophic. Lead shot for waterfowl hunting has been banned for years and the industry somehow has survived.
Whenever an American industry is faced with a new policy that might cost it a little money and/or trouble it always squeals that it’s going to be destroyed. Auto industry, oil industry, coal industry, ammunition industry — all the same. Look at the history.”
Lead cores bullets are the industry standard. They work best and provide the best value to the consumer. The greater expense and inferior terminal ballistics of alternatives translates to fewer hunters and shooters…….lowered demand which will directly correlate to loss of employment in the shooting sports industry. Pretty much straight line logic.
I doubt if the Source would last long if some legislator or agency got the bright idea to ban newsprint and restrict papers to being printed only on high brightness bond paper. It would crush the cost structure of the business and threaten its survival. It wouldn’t matter if some insignificant snail or butterfly was saved as a result if you were out of work and couldn’t pay your mortgage.
“Cramer himself says the ’10 million’ number is insignificant, because a billion birds a year die from running into windows. Which is a little like saying that nothing matters and we needn’t make any effort because after all Jesus is coming soon.”
Or like saying we shouldn’t bother to protect kids from diphtheria because millions of ’em are killed in car accidents. Those who advocate for letting cats run loose make a similar argument — that cat predation is insignificant compared to the number of birds killed by other causes. In fact they’re making a powerful argument AGAINST their own position: The more threats to the species there are, the more we need to address those threats that we can reduce or eliminate.
“Lead cores bullets are the industry standard. They work best and provide the best value to the consumer.”
You could have said the same thing about leaded gasoline and lead-based house paint. In fact, many people did. Nonetheless, leaded gasoline and lead-based house paint have been eliminated in the US. And guess what — neither the oil industry nor the auto industry nor the paint industry collapsed.
It’s SOP for industries to squeal that they’re going to be put out of business by any change in policy or regulation that could inconvenience them or cost them a little money, but I can’t think of a single case where it actually happened.
“I doubt if the Source would last long if some legislator or agency got the bright idea to ban newsprint and restrict papers to being printed only on high brightness bond paper.”
Apples-and-watermelons comparison. Our paper is not killing people or wildlife.
Slow down, guys,
‘Cramer himself says the ’10 million’ number is insignificant, because a billion birds a year die from running into windows. Which is a little like saying that nothing matters and we needn’t make any effort because after all Jesus is coming soon.’ (How much inflammatory bullshit can be rolled into less than 50 words?!)
First, I never wrote 10 million (if true) was insignificant. I gave a sourced study where poisoning by lead did not make the list in bird mortality in 2003. It’s from a reliable impartial source. Sorry for the red herring about windows, but like cat predation (estimates of up to 500 million), the numbers dwarf anything we are talking about here.
Reviewing literature about lead poisoning does reveal that feeding on lead shot is a primary source for poisoning waterfowl. Well, lead birdshot has been off the market for almost two decades and estimates of bird mortality from that source show a trend of decline.
I cannot find any source for the ’10 million’ number, though, that is actually sourced from a study–it’s what I asked for and in response get a sneering ‘I know what I know!’ from Clifford.
Lead shot is no longer manufactured for waterfowl hunting.
“Argument from ignorance, also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam or appeal to ignorance, is an informal logical fallacy; it asserts that a proposition is necessarily true because it has not been proven false (or vice versa). This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option: there is insufficient data and the proposition has not yet been proven to be either true or false. In debates, appeals from ignorance are sometimes used to shift the burden of proof.” Chill, everyone, it’s clipped from Wikipedia.
If someone really had the evidence supporting the 10 million claim, certainly they would post it to give credence to their POV in a debate. At least if they were concerned about their credibility.
If lead bullets are a significant threat to the existance od a species, it has to be addressed. It happened with waterfowl birdshot. I personally have no problem eliminating all lead birdshot all hunting.
‘I have to go but I’ll come back and finish annhiliating the right wing side of this debate later, time (and the real world) permitting.’
Clifford–the study will do that. Facts end discussions like this. Numbers that pop up in press releases and comment areas that are fact based are credible. Everything else is just sound and fury, signifying nothing…
Um, Jegglie, enough about the 22 birds. We’re debating whether 10 MILLION birds across 75 different species die each year (horrible deaths, by the way) from lead poisoning. So leave that 22 be, we’ve moved on.
Your buddy Cramer is obsessed about whether the 10 million birds dying a year of lead poisoning is a ‘fact’, or instead a ‘claim’ made up out of the clear blue. But then again, it doesn’t matter because Cramer claimed condors live to age sixty and didn’t cite a source for that. But then again, it does matter because I’m the one ‘name-calling’. But then again it doesn’t matter because I got called ‘hysterical’. But then again it does matter because Cramer likes to attack facts in order to undermine the entirety of someone’s argument, because if there’s a question about one certain fact then ALL of liberalism is a sham, and that’s probably a debate tactic Cramer learned from Sean Hannity’s ‘attack passionate liberal assertions of common nonsense’ ploy (or was that a Limbaugh trick?). But then again it doesn’t matter because Cramer gave an example of citing a source and he cited Sibley, who is, as any decent right winger knows, a direct descendent of Stalin.
Lessee here…Google…I’m typing in: “10 million birds die each year of lead poisoning”…it’s dialing…hang on…okay 300,000 possible sources for the fact and/or claim. 300,000 isn’t enough for Cramer, but we’re gonna try. Okay, first entry is a post board. No help. Next listing containing the claim/fact…ewww, that’s some kind of government publication, and we all know there’s a socialist in the White House. Next listing? Oh, from the American Bird Conservancy…What?! They say it’s as much as 20 million birds dying of lead poisoning per year?!?! That’s crazy talk! Wait a minute…American Bird Conservancy…them’s libnuts! Okay, next listing…Biological Diversity Dot Org citing the fact and/or claim…naw, sounds like a facist network…here’s something called Find Health News citing the fact and/or claim…No, they’re part of the neo-Nazi health care reform…Holy cow! The Outdoor Channel says it! Well, if the Outdoor Channel says it…
But dammit, I have a sneaking suspicion that no source out of the 300,000 would be good enough. Look at Jegglie’s earlier treatis about why all science is wrong because scientists need to make stuff up like climate change so they can get grants. So even if I was actually the original scientist who figured out about the 10 million birds dying a year of lead poisoning it just wouldn’t matter.
And yet this argument got going when one right-winger flew in the face of reality and claimed that condors only ate live prey. Then the argument kept going when another right winger claimed that the only possible way to make a bullet was out of lead. Then another right winger claimed that there was no lead in the wilderness because hunters always took their kills home. So I say again: the right wing will believe whatever it wants to believe. The right wing doesn’t have to produce documentation that Obama is conspiring against the gun industry, the right wing just says it and it’s true. They don’t have to produce a Kenyan birth certificate for Obama. They don’t have to know the meaning of the word ‘communist’ when they can just repeat it over and over. Or… Uh oh, what do we have here? Could it be the right wing’s indisputable source of correct information right here in the bookshelf behind me? It is! It’s The Holy Bible!
What did Cramer say above about ‘inflammatory argument’? Was it because I mentioned Jesus? Yeah, if you want to talk about citing sources, then just argue with any right winger long enough and they’ll start citing the Bible. See, I just opened my Bible to one of two obscure passages (maybe) saying homosexuality is evil. Well, there you go, you can’t let gay people in the military. What else is in here…? Wow. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. Does this only apply to Mexicans? Why can’t I own a Canadian? Oh, lookee: I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it? That reminds me! I have a very rebellious daughter. If she doesn't come around, can I really sell her into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. What would be a fair price for her?
Anyway, why not just make bullets out of bio-friendly materials? How hard could that be? Didn’t this country land a man on the moon?
Scary to find out what can be lurking in the midst everything. It’s time to raise awareness of global health crises like lead toxicity.