We are in one of history’s worst economic disasters ever.
We got here because of the way things were – the bad rules and anything-goes
mentality. It was satisfying in a lot of ways. There was plenty of money and
lots of good stuff to get. And for quite a while, there were many, many more
opportunities of success for the everyday person. For a while. But things kept
quietly snowballing out of control. The short-term, get it now without any
regard to the out-of-balance consequences attitude was rotting away our inner
strengths.
The foundations that made America a place of dreams come
true for the rest of the world to aspire to were slipping away – disappearing
into that ever-widening philosophy of capitalism. The free-market concept kept
acting like a spoiled child throwing temper tantrums to get what she wanted.
But instead of seeing that her ever growing demands were just causing her to
ask for more and more, and put a stop to it, we called it recession; snickered
and foolishly chalked it off to growing pains. We refused to see that she had
us twisted around her little finger and would soon demand more than we could
give.
She was becoming a little monster and we just kept going on
our merry ways. We kept telling ourselves that things were just temporary. They
would work themselves out. If we just take care of our own best interests and
leave everybody else to their own devices, we could hold on to those concepts
of “choice” and “pulling yourself up by your bootstraps.” We learned how to
tighten our capacities for tolerance and compassion. Everybody was getting
their own little worlds of “us” verses “them.” It allowed us to continue
ignoring what was getting slammed right in front of our faces – that now, even
our friends and neighbors were being swallowed up by the abyss.
Things that couldn’t possibly fail, were failing. Old and
new alike were falling by the wayside. Everybody everywhere with everything
they were doing was being squeezed.
And yet, instead of accepting our mistakes and learning
from them -making our weak points strong ones – and instead of taking our
outright faults and being humbled by them, we just keep trying to get back to
where we were.
We keep thinking the old ways that did us in, can now
somehow save us.
This article appears in Jul 9-15, 2009.
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Was it the “old way” of “rugged individualism” that did us in, or was it the “new way” of socialist compassion that led the country to the abyss?
In the “old way” people depended on their family, church, community, and then the local government, for assistance. Schools were actually run by local boards, mothers joined the PTA, neighbors cared for one another, children had chores to do (and summer jobs), respect for others was common, and life was simpler.
Now, with the “new way” all of that has been lost. With over 50% of the population dependent, either directly or indirectly, on the federal government we as a nation are dependent on foreign countries, and foreign labor, for our survival. In the meantime there are around 12 million people who are capable of working living off the government teat. Yet they say we need the illegal immigrant to do the jobs that Americans cannot, or will not (and it is mostly a will not situation) to do the work.
Does this mean that the “old way” was perfect? Not at all. No system is entirely perfect. However, it was sure a hell of lot better then what we have now.
Ken,
Yes, the old way of having an elderly poverty rate at 35% was much better than 10%. Old people eating dog food was “a hell of a lot better then [sic] what we have now.”
Swipies back from hibernation and still spouting the old mythology! Surely you’ve realized the Conservatives have taken over “compassion”?
And the US has always “depended” on foreign labor – first it was the immigrants (original hoards, pilgrims etc.) then we depended on Slaves for a few hundred years and then, right up to the present, immigrants again. What exactly has changed?
Now to the 12 million teat suckers … where exactly would you like them to work Mr Swipies? Show us all the list of jobs. Or would you like them loaded onto boxcars and brought to Belsen or made into Soylent Green?
Your “Old America” is, and always has been imaginary Mr Swipies …. there never was a Gilded Age where good (white, one presumes) Americans had picket fences, a dog called Shep, Mahalia (the black nanny) made the best apple pie, and we chillun played baseball until sunset. There’s something disquietening about these false eutopian fantasies: I guess even nostalgia isn’t what it used to be.
It is no wonder that people such as myself who lived through some of the “gold ol days” think of people such as Shortall, and Bendite, as arrogant assholes lacking in civility.
In the days I grew up in we didn’t see kids killing kids in the schools, or beating up the teachers. The dropout rate was slight, not up to 40%. And kids actually learned how to read, and write, and think for themselves.
In my day we worked for a living not expecting to live off the government teat as so many do today. Families actually helped each other rather then drive them to the welfare office, or try to think of ways to scam a government program. We didn’t have a problem with STD’s, and promiscuous girls had a name not a place of honor.
And people had a sense of honor rather then lies to foment their precious agenda.
The “teat suckers”? Are they too good to go pick the lettuce, berries, or what is necessary? Are they so much “better” then the illegals we “have” to import so the job can get done? When did hard labor become a point of shame rather then pride?
You think the poverty rate is 10% now? Bull. When you have over 50% of the general population reliant on the fed for their living, and you think the poverty rate is 10%? How many of these folks have placed their kids on SSI for ADD, or ASHD, which is a phony diagnoses to begin with?
Who do you think is paying for all of this? Have you checked out the higher prices for goods recently especially for food, and energy? Why should a farmer be paid for not planting 10% of his land into crops when we inport so much food? Why should any corporation be given money to promote their business overseas? Why should others pay for your health insurance when you chose to live in a certain manner in which you cannot afford the health insurance?
So, instead of facing facts, or reality, you use the common tactic of false innuendoes, and outright lies, about others. Your fantasy is so much better then reality.
BTW, every study ever done has shown that Conservatives give far more of their time, and money, to helping others, not just sitting around bitching about how bad it was, and is, and then relying on the government to fix things for you.
Mr. Swipies,
I’d be very interested to see the citations and studies that provide you with the statistics you cite in your commentary.
It sounds like you grew up in quite a different America than me.
Swipies, you make your points persuasively and I agree with much of what you say – don’t like the 50% estimate though, as it includes government employees and govt contractors in the number of “dependents” of the “fed”. Civilized nations must have government employees – the military, teachers, police, administrators etc. They and the taxes that fund them are the fees one pays to live in civilization.
You seem very angry for someone who lived the charmed and privileged life you described – the way America has turned out, I can’t say I blame you. I too lament its decline but we differ in where we attach the blame.
thanks for contributing – you are clearly sincere.
Arrogant asshole
Mr. Shortall, what “charmed and privileged life” are you referring to? My first place of residence when my father moved here from Minnesota was in the projects of St. Johns Woods. My father was a welder in the ship yards, and then for Oregon Steel Mills. Finally he saved enough to by a house in the Lents District, then another on 72nd. and Holgate. Finally he bought the house my mother is still living in on 76th. and Powell. I helped my father dig out the basement by hand using a conveyor belt, and shovels. I helped him rewire the home, build kitchen cabinets while remodeling the house. We had a garden, raised rabbits, had chores such as mowing the lawn. Then there was the paper route, and picking berries, and beans, in the summer along with selling roses, and peonies we grew, on Memorial Day. My mother canned fruit, and we went smelt dipping in the spring to freeze fish. Then there was the hunting, and fishing, which we also froze. Finally my father got “brown lung”, had two strokes, got stomach cancer, and died.
One thing my father taught me was not to rely on others for a living never taking a dime in government aid. He also taught me that a mans word was his bond. I never saw him break his word to anyone.
It was a good life even with all of the work, and something I will never regret.
What I am angry about is what liberalism has created. We now have generations of people who have never lived on anything save welfare. We have children who do not want to do the hard labor required in any society. Sure, the country was built on immigrants when the population needed to grow. However, that time is past.
Government employees are a necessity to be sure. However, do we need one USDA worker for every 12 farmers? Does it take 6 men to paint a strip down a highway when the actual painting is done by machine? How many times have you seen a county truck go down the road heading for nowhere? I have seen county plow trucks driving around looking for a place to hide when there is no snow for them to plow.
Since the Conservative value system has been lost since the 60’s, and since it is now liberals who control the education system, the welfare system, and the government in Oregon since 1985, who are you to blame? In study after study it has been shown that 60% of the kids think cheating on tests is ok, lying is ok; another 30% steal from their parents; 30+% do drugs, or drink, on a regular basis; and more and more are not interested in looking for work till they are 24 years of age, and prefer to live with mommy, and daddy.
Just as an example. You mention “Soylent Green”. Is not abortion the same? Babies are killed, their body parts sold, and their cells used for “research”. And if one should survive a botched abortion it is allowed to die by starvation. Children are taught in the schools that it is not a human life, that it is just a collection of cells similar to a tumor, or it is an alien in the womans body, or a parasite. And then you expect them to have respect for life? And hey, forget abstinence, kids are going to do it anyway.
Liberals will protect the egg of an eagle, the nest of a kangaroo rat, the habitat of the snail darter, yet they will not admit that life begins at conception. And even after birth they will not support laws such as Jessica’s Law, or even infanticide laws, for fear that it will disturb their deeply held beliefs. In fact, Planned Parenthood will not even report the sexual abuse of a child if she comes in for an abortion, and the man is an adult.
And then liberals spoout off that Conservatives “love the fetus, but hate the child”. BS. Conservatives are the ones that provide care for the woman till she gives birth, and then provide adoptions, all without charge.
When I left Oregon in the late 60’s after getting out of the service it was a great State to live in. I came back 5 years ago to see that it has been ruined. It is no longer the State of my childhood. It has been turned into a liberal plantation.
How exactly is arguing that I prefer a society with fewer elderly in crippling poverty being arrogant? How does pointing out statistics make me lack civility?
Why all the anger? Sorry that the U.S. looks different now than it did when/where you grew up. Maybe like Pat Buchanan said a couple days ago, you lament the 60’s when “90% of the US was white.” Guess what…those days weren’t so good for everyone. Try getting out a bit a talking to people who had a far different experience growing up in the “good ol’ days.” You might learn something.
Mr Swipies, you’re like a madman slashing at everyone around you…. first you won’t answer the very positive points I put about “Liberal History” then you accuse me of, well, accusing you of having a charmed and privileged life… where did you get that? I didn’t write it, that’s for sure.
Well done on helping your father do whatever it is you did at home… I concentrated on avoiding my father’s fist.
and Kudos to your dad… but what should we do with all those millions of dads who didn’t teach the “self reliance” thing? What about the 150 million Americans who are below average intelligence? Soylent Green? Kick them in the arse? Send them to he Gulag?
You say you are angry about “what liberalism has created” but what sickens me about American conservatives is this… every single right you have, you have because of the thoughts, erudition, bravery and blood of liberals. I wouldn’t lower myself to debate this point with you – if you don’t get this, then you are wayyyyyyyyy out of your depth in this argument and you need to read more. I can tolerate you mixing up “Conservative” and “Republican” and switching and swapping the terms around until my head is spinning, but if you don’t realize where your human rights came from then you are not only a lost cause, but an idiot.
The “conservative value system” you mourn is, and has always been a fake, a myth and a lie. The “Good Ol’ conservatives” were slave owners, colonialists, racists and snobs who regarded poor (and different colored) people as grist to their mills…… you very urgently need to broaden your reading. You’re coming across as the guy who wrote “The Walton’s” – get real.
And these studies….! “n study after study it has been shown that 60% of the kids think cheating on tests is ok, lying is ok; another 30% steal from their parents; 30+% do drugs, or drink, on a regular basis; and more and more are not interested in looking for work till they are 24 years of age, and prefer to live with mommy, and daddy”… this isn’t because they’re liberals, it’s because they’re Americans. Weak, stupid, fat and spoiled – late Imperial Citizens… simple at that. Your country is populated by Soft Trash.
And this crap:”Conservatives are the ones that provide care for the woman till she gives birth, and then provide adoptions, all without charge”.. how very telling that you left out “and help the mother look after the child after it is born”… this is one of the many reasons I hate conservatism – the inbred, usually literally, dishonesty.
I kind of had you pegged for someone from the “service” – and I’m sorry your idyllic home has vanished but I have bad news for you… it’s better to live in a real world that is soiled than in a fake one that is full of rot.
Bendite, and your only response is an accusation that I am racist?
That is the way liberals think. I would hate to tell you of my experiences as an adult, however, it is your assumption that I need to “get out” and talk to others. Sorry. I have been “out” plenty. From the time I left home to go in the military, through my college years, the time I worked as a farm laborer, my time in prison, or being “homeless” in the late 70’s, I have known the homeless, and the “dumpster divers”. I used to party with homosexuals, “ladies of the night”, bikers such as the Hells Angels. On the other hand some of my best friends have been multimillionaires. As an OTR truck driver I met people you would never meet. Four of my five brothers were “junkies”.
What can one such as yourself with your limited worldview teach me? I have seen the results of liberalism. You have only lived as a liberal.
Why not try to respond to the issues I have spoken of, and show me where I am wrong?
Wasn’t it in another response that you spoke of Christ? Would Christ have approved of killing the unborn? Where did Christ teach charity for the lazy, and slothful? Did not Christ teach that marriage was between a man, and a woman? Did not Christ teach that a man should provide for his family? Did not Christ teach that a man was to be subservient to God, and his wife, and the woman likewise subservient to him? Did not Christ teach that those who believe in Him should go forth, and preach the word? Did not Christ say that those who denied the law of God, and taught others to do so, would be the least in heaven? Did not Christ teach that a laborer was to be paid according to his work?
Liberals love to claim to be “christians”, yet they deny the very essence of what Christ stood for, and taught. They wish to replace the God of Christianity with the “nanny State”, and all the while putting Christ in the closet while allowing deviants to speak freely, and do as they please.
So, what do you have to offer? What can you teach me? With all of your false accusations what do you have?
I’ll try to focus, to keep it simple:
“Liberals love to claim to be “christians”, yet they deny the very essence of what Christ stood for, and taught. They wish to replace the God of Christianity with the “nanny State”, and all the while putting Christ in the closet while allowing deviants to speak freely, and do as they please”
1. you don’t get to label “deviants”
2. most of the people I’ve heard droning on about Christ and yet having no grasp of Jesus’ basic message were Conservatives, not Liberals. What country do you live in?
3. Yeah, don’t ya just hate that “speaking freely” and “doing what they like thing”…. Stalin hated it too (yes, I know, Stalin, the famous “liberal” ha ha)
Shortall, I hate to disappoint you, however, you are confusing the Classical Liberal of Jefferson with the liberalism of today which is nothing short of socialism. If you think that the “liberals” who fought, and died, to establish this country believed in unlimited government powers, and placing more people on the teat of the government, then you obviously need to study your history from a true perspective, not the rewritten history liberals love to fantasize about.
There was a time in our history when both parties were consevative in their viewpoints as to the role of government. However, that began to change with the formation of the federal reserve banking system, and then the “progressive invome tax”. Following the crash of 29, created in a large part by the federal reserve, it opened the door for the expansion of federal control, and the introduction of the “progressive” policies of FDR. From this we have seen a constant expansion, and interference into the personal lives of individuals, by the federal government. At the same time we have seen an erosion of States rights, and the rights of the individual.
Let me give you another example. In the late 1800’s there was a drought in Texas that devastated the wheat farmers. The farmers then petitioned the federal government for money for seeds. Cleveland (a Democrat)angered several important groups of voters, including Texas farmers, by vetoing a bill to provide seeds for drought stricken areas, reasoning that “the government should not support the people ”
Jefferson, Madison, Henry, and a majority of others, setting aside the Hamilton faction, believed that CENTRAL power should be restrained, restricted and controlled. They would never have supported the federal government interfering with LOCAL decisions on religion or any like subject. On abortion, or women’s right of choice, both Jefferson and Madison most likely would have taken the position to keep the federal government OUT of personal lives, TOTALLY.
Again, Jefferson and Madison perceived the CENTRAL government’s role as strictly national defense, international and interstate commerce, treaties, the postal system, and the like. EVERYTHING else was a state or local matter. Additionally, each of them attended religious services in government buildings which would be forbidden today.
Basically, you cannot name one program that MODERN liberals have fought for that has benefitted America. Programs like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Head Start, farm aid, whatever, have consistently placed a higher tax burden on the people, extended government control, and created a bureaucracy filled with waste, fraud, and corruption, and have been abject failures the longer they a re around. If they were so successful we would have the best education, healthcare, etc., in the world, and we do not. At one time we did, however, that has been destroyed.
Then too, you have to act dishonestly in stating that I have not addressed your claims of successful liberal programs before.
In conclusion, it was upon womens sufferage, an end to slavery, and other civil rights that the GOP was founded, not the Democratic Party.
Ken,
Trouble with the old reading comprehension, huh? I had a couple points, but you focused in on that one pretty quick. Maybe you didn’t learn this while in PRISON, but many groups of people don’t talk about the good ol’ days (like you do) because they weren’t better for them. Do you get that?! What is so hard to understand about that? Black people, the elderly, homosexuals and women had it worse in many, many ways. Since you are arguing that times were better back then and they basically only were for white men, then yes…you are making a racist, homophobic and sexist point.
Swipees, I take it then that you do not own a dictionary – and as for socialism… you have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about
Bendite, you (and I) are wasting your time … he just wants to say, over and over again, what he wants to say. Maybe he’s relieved now
Shortall, I didn’t “label” deviants. The God you, and many liberals, claim to believe in did. However, as to “fee speech”, it is everyones right to free speech so why would you silence the Conservative Christian voice especially in the education system? Or, do you believe there have been no attacks on Christians who speak against the homoseuxual lifestyle?
Have you heard about the case where the ACLU is attempting to have a cross at a veterans memorial in the Mojave Desert removed? Should not Christians have the right to have a nativity scene on school grounds, or in the public square, if the majority of people support it? Should not children ba able to wear Christian symbols to school without being harassed by the faculty? How about mentioning God in a graduation ceremony?
The too, you chose to ignore the other subjects that Christ taught with obvious intentions. Kind of like in the previous post where you seem to think that if a Conservative group provides adoptions for the child of the unwed mother they are not caring about the child after it is born. Maybe you should do some research and see just which group has the vast majority of daycare facilities, or soup kitchens, in the country.
And those “Soft Trash” ones you say are not liberal are those who voted for your liberal Democrats like Obama in the last election. They are those who want a free education through college. They are the ones that want national healthcare.
Bendite, it was your comment that I needed to “talk to others” to which I was responding. I have, and I have lived with them.
Back in the early 60’s I was stationed in Biloxi Ms., and was standing on a street corner in town talking to a fellow airman who happened to be Black. Almost got arrested for that one. Later I had a friend who was Black. Used to hang together all the time. When the Civil Rights Act was passed in 1965 I met with him for the last time. He told me that we could not get together again since his people would not like it, nor would mine. I thought then that was a bunch of crap, yet I never saw him again.
A certain percentage of people will never have it as good as others. Doesn’t matter who you are. The Irish had it bad in the late 1800’s. The Chinese were persecuted in places like California. The Jewish are still hated by many here in this country. Germans had to change their names during WW2, and then there was the Japanese internment by one of your heroes FDR.
And today Conservative Christians are denigrated by your ilk simply because they believe in a God that you do not believe in, or accept the teachings of.
I grew up in a time where a man could provide for his family on a single income. A time when fathers actually taught their children how to survive. A time when mothers actually cared for their children rather then abort the ones they do not want, and send the others to the mall when they get in the way. Did you know that the employment of women is used by corporations to keep wages cheap?
So, I am still asking for you two to point out one success program that liberals have introduced. Forget about going off the wall with examples that have nothing to do with government programs. Show one that has actually succeeded.
I realize that your anger stems from not being able to actually provide one, however, why take it out on me when I simply show the deficiencies in your case?
Show me where Medicare, Medicaid, or even SCHIPPS (remember the recent reort where Oregon rates a “D” grade for chidcare?), has improved the healthcare for the people. Show me where Outcome Based Education, New Math, Situational Ethics, Whole language, etc., has improved the education system, or how removing God, and the Ten Commandments, has made the kids safer. Show me where welfare, the EITC, low income housing, etc., has improved on poverty. Show me how abortion (when 41% of all Black children conceived in Wash. DC are aborted) has improved the lives of children. Show me how raising taxes (Oregon is now the 2nd highest taxed area in the world, not just the US, and has the second, or third, highest rate of unemployment in the US) has benefited the poor, or the low income worker.
I know you must have some examples aside from the 35% poverty rate of the Great Depression. Surely the decline from 1st. place in education to 23rd. place worldwide must be blamed on Conservatives somehow. Surely you must have some example of how Conservatives have destroyed what was once the greatest healthcare system in the world.
Come on. I know you can do it. Right?
A Conservative Cladism!!!! The ultimate in Comic Irony….. a guy who doesn’t know what a liberal is, is now proposing the existence of numerous sub-species of liberals…. some of whom seem, well, er.. Conservative… to suit the needs of his argument at any particular moment… say one was to look up Jefferson or Adams in er, a book, and discover that they were “Liberal thinkers and Statesmen” then one is stumped…surely no one “good” can be a “liberal” like ugh Bill Maher, so they MUST be a hitherto unknown category of Liberal, the Good-Ol’-Days-Liberal (a golden time when we had that Ol’ Time Relijun and an infant mortality rate of 40%, and slaves, and no unions, and no minimum pay, and you could only vote if you had property, and you could treat your wife like a chattel, and you could beat the living daylights out of prisoners (nice to see some things haven’t changed Stateside!!!!), and 8 year olds could be worked to skeletons in the Mill…. Oh, yes, the Good Ol’ Days!!! Ahhhhhhhh.
Good job we had those Old Liberals, Moderately Old Liberals, Fairly Ancient Liberals, Ancient Liberals (i.e. Jesus) to git us all our rights before we turned into whining, bitter, thankless Conservatives with no time whatsoever for those Moderately New Liberals, Dang Newish Liberals, New Liberals, Brand New Liberals and now the latest…. Spanking New Liberals… Ah hatem!
Mr Swipies, one never has so much to learn as when one believes one has nothing to learn. Best of luck to you in your search for Conservative Utopia.
Ken,
Seriously?! You can’t ask for an example and then respond to our answers with, “I know you must have some examples aside from the…”
This reminds me of one of the favorite conservative arguments against evolution. “There has never been a transitional fossil between fossil A and B.” When transitional fossil C is discovered between A and B, you then get the ol’ “Now you are missing two transitional fossils. One between A and C and one between C and B.” Move the goal posts much?
Swipies: try arguing with points actually made: you’re making a complete fool of yourself:
“The God you, and many liberals, claim to believe in did” – I don’t believe in God
Next: there IS no Conservative Christian voice in the Education System because there is no religious voice in the education system at all.
“Or, do you believe there have been no attacks on Christians who speak against the homoseuxual lifestyle” There is no such thing as a homosexual lifestyle only homosexual people. Also, anyone is entitled to oppose Christians on any stance they take – this IS America. Next
“And today Conservative Christians are denigrated by your ilk simply because they believe in a God that you do not believe in, or accept the teachings of” Con Christians are not denigrated because they are Christians – I especially have no interest in their peculiarly American religion – they are denigrated because they are ignorant bigots. Next.
“So, I am still asking for you two to point out one success program that liberals have introduced. Forget about going off the wall with examples that have nothing to do with government programs. Show one that has actually succeeded” I don’t know of any programs Liberal or Conservative that using your cleverly thought out criteria, would be considered successful. You’re just too clever for us Swipies!!!!
“I realize that your anger stems from not being able to actually provide one, however, why take it out on me when I simply show the deficiencies in your case” Don’t flatter yourself Swipies.. I feel no anger toward you, really. And you have shown no deficiencies apart from the ones you seem determined to demonstrate in yourself.
Now Medicare: I work in healthcare so I should know something, right. Thought experiment: imagine you could make Medicare disappear tomorrow, with me so far? Now how the hell do old people get to see their physicians? I’ll wait.
Abortion: not intended to improve lives of children. Thus your question, like many others, makes no sense.
Education: having had to suffer through several correspondences with you, I am fully convinced that US education is scuppered: not by Libs, not by Conservatives… but because you’re all Americans. Education requires too much discipline for your culture to tolerate. Sorry
if i recall correctly, the only Command that Jesus issued was “that you love your god with your whole heart, your whole mind and your whole soul, and that you love your neighbor as you love yourself.” I didn’t see anything in his teaching about not giving charity to the slothful. or marraige only between a man and a women. christians today have a problem because the claim to be christian and follow christ, but they have deviated so far from what he taught that even they have trouble remembering it, case in point: you claims about what jesus “Taught”. re-read the bible.
also, just because you knew a black person in the 60’s it doesn’t mean you know ANYTHING about race in this country. you live in central oregon where minorities make up 2% of the population.
And lastly you talked about “Outcome Based Education”, well you may remember that this was a part of the “no child left behind” courtesy of GWB. And just so you know, Outcome Based Education, is based on a prussian (read:nazi), program for controlling the minds of the youth of germany. check it out for yourself:
http://www.nheld.com/schools_to_careers_editorial.htm
Shortall, first off, there was a Conservative Christian voice in the education system prior to liberals removing it. And it was during that period of time that the education system actually succeeded.
Now, of course, you being a “non-believer” why would you then believe in any form of deviancy. In NYC there are prositutes as young as 11, as there are in most major cities. Rhode Island just passed a law making it legal for 16 year olds to strip in night clubs, and since RI has not law against private prostitution these same kids are allowed to do so as long as they do it privately, not on the streets.
As to medicare, you do know, since you work in the healthcare field, that medicare only pays a certain percentage of the bill, right? So, if they have a catastrophic illness who pays the bill? If you know so much then you also know that ,edicare is one of the reasons why private insurance premiums are so high. No one has said that that the healthcare system does not need to be changed, and regulations placed on the activities of insurance companies, however, the recent healthcare act is not going to do that. All it will do is increase the costs more, and then rationing will occur.
If abortion is not intended to improve the lives of children then what is it for? Other then the eugenics that Sangler, the founder of Planned Parenthood, espoused, of what value is it? Is not one of the basic arguments of abortion supporters that the children being aborted would not have a satisfactory life? By that very same standard one would expect that the children who are not aborted will have a better life.
Then too, you fail to see that a child not being aborted, and then being adopted, is an improvemnet on the childs life, or providing for the child.
Then too, you expect “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” to apply to all save for the unborn. In your world there is nothing horrendous about doctors such as the now dead Tiller taking a child the day before birth, killing it while it is in the womb, and then delivering a dead baby. And, obviously since you made no reference to it, you would accept the starving of a baby that survives a botched abortion.
As to education, if you are an example of a foreign education God help us all if our system becomes what you have enjoyed.
As to liberalism, I find it not at all strange that your kind would try to equate the liberalism of today with the Classical Liberal of the 1700’s. What you espouse in your examples, and by your posts, is not what the Founders fought for as I explained beofre. Your form of “liberal” is closer to totaliarian then one of seeking liberties for all.
For example, if there is a right to oppose Christianity on any front then why is there not the same right to oppose homosexuality using the same premise? Yet your ilk would call that hate speech, or “homophobic”. And to say there is no homosexual “lifestyle” is pure ignorance.
Thomas Sowell once wrote รข One of the consequences of such notions as “entitlements” is that people who have contributed nothing to society feel that society owes them something, apparently just for being nice enough to grace us with their presence.รข ย
That is what todays liberalism is all about. However, the end result is a form of indentured servitude to the State just as that same indentured servitude existed in times past such as in merry old England.
Bendite said: Seriously?! You can’t ask for an example and then respond to our answers with, “I know you must have some examples aside from the…”
This reminds me of one of the favorite conservative arguments against evolution. “There has never been a transitional fossil between fossil A and B.” When transitional fossil C is discovered between A and B, you then get the ol’ “Now you are missing two transitional fossils. One between A and C and one between C and B.” Move the goal posts much?
Problem is there have been no transitional fossils found that prove evolution just as you gave no examples of hate speech wishing another dead from the right that is the equivalent of what the liberals have said.
Shortall says: A Conservative Cladism!!!! The ultimate in Comic Irony….. a guy who doesn’t know what a liberal is, is now proposing the existence of numerous sub-species of liberals…. some of whom seem, well, er.. Conservative… to suit the needs of his argument at any particular moment… say one was to look up Jefferson or Adams in er, a book, and discover that they were “Liberal thinkers and Statesmen” then one is stumped…surely no one “good” can be a “liberal” like ugh Bill Maher, so they MUST be a hitherto unknown category of Liberal, the Good-Ol’-Days-Liberal (a golden time when we had that Ol’ Time Relijun and an infant mortality rate of 40%, and slaves, and no unions, and no minimum pay, and you could only vote if you had property, and you could treat your wife like a chattel, and you could beat the living daylights out of prisoners (nice to see some things haven’t changed Stateside!!!!), and 8 year olds could be worked to skeletons in the Mill…. Oh, yes, the Good Ol’ Days!!! Ahhhhhhhh.”
So, now we have 11 year olds as prostitutes, and no one seems to care. Children, under the liberal view, are still chattel that can be killed as long as it is beofre they are born. At least when the mortality rate was 40% it was due to infections, and the discovery of antibiotics ended much of that. Now it is due to abortion. Whoa, we can’t count the death of the unborn as an infant mortality, now can we? That would have to force you to admit they are human.
Now, in todays world what benfit are unions? In fact, of what benefit is the minimum wage? Are not minimum wage workers entitled to food stamps, medicaid, low income housing, EITC? And is not that the government subsidizing their living?
Hopefully you are not suggesting that Jefferson, Adams, etc., would have accepted the welfare State of todays “liberals”, are you? How can one be free if they are dependent on the nanny State of liberalism?
“Good job we had those Old Liberals, Moderately Old Liberals, Fairly Ancient Liberals, Ancient Liberals (i.e. Jesus) to git us all our rights before we turned into whining, bitter, thankless Conservatives with no time whatsoever for those Moderately New Liberals, Dang Newish Liberals, New Liberals, Brand New Liberals and now the latest…. Spanking New Liberals… Ah hatem!”
What rights are you speaking of? Is it not the intent of liberals to take away the right to own guns? Is it not the intent of liberals to stifle free speech of Conservative talk shows? Are not liberals attempting to remove Christian programs from PBS just as they have from the schools, and the public square?
If you believe in rights so much then why would you oppose student led prayer at a graduation ceremony?
The answer is, or course, you only believe in the rights that liberalism has declared acceptable.
“Mr Swipies, one never has so much to learn as when one believes one has nothing to learn. Best of luck to you in your search for Conservative Utopia.”
Mr. Shortall, if you would quit whining long enough to think about what it was that I actually said perhaps you would gain a better understanding of what it is I seek.