This week’s letter comes from Mike Caba who continues our ongoing dialogue over interrogation practices with a nice meditation on the moral perils of state-sponsored torture. Thanks for the letter, Mike. You can pick up your winnings, a pound of Strictly Organic Coffee, at our offices, 704 NW Georgia.
With this business about torture our country has accomplished two bits of the devil’s business, namely, we are both more evil within, and less protected from evil without. When this unfortunate practice is examined, we see that discussion surrounding the use of torture nearly always circles around two pivot points, the moral and the utilitarian, summarized as follows: is it evil and, does it work? On the first question, nary a voice is heard in opposition to the contention that torture is essentially evil at its core; and those who have practiced it in the past, or who unfortunately still practice it today, have often devalued their victims to a subhuman status in order to soothe their own moral vibes against the use of various devices (e.g. the Nazis and the untermensch).
Thus the moral question is fairly well settled in the abstract, yet the utilitarian argument seems to carry the day, that is, “it seems to work to save lives at times, so shouldn’t we do it?” Indeed, at times it does save some lives, so what’s the beef? If we can save some people from destruction via the application of so called “enhanced” techniques on well-known terrorists, isn’t it our duty to, well, enhance them vigorously? It is generally agreed that there may be some tiny cracks in an absolutist position against torture along these lines; that maybe, just maybe, it might be useful in some very extreme cases. I grant the weight of the argument.
Yet, consider the downside on national security of a widespread practice of torture – and a widespread practice of torture is what it appears we, yes we Americans, actually have had. When you look beyond some specific instances that may save some lives, and you examine the broader national security picture, besides enraging and fostering more enemies, you see that via the use of a widespread practice of torture that America loses that ever-so-necessary strategic position, the moral high ground. America at its core is an experiment in moral vision, not simple raw tribalism, not pure survival for survival sake, and we must never lose sight of the fact that living out this moral vision on the TV screens of the world is essential to our security, both short and long term. The connection between goodness and security in a world in which the opinion of the masses matters greatly cannot be easily ignored, and those who cut the tie do so at their own peril. Thus, the utilitarian excuse for the practice of torture is fraught with great difficulties.
Thus on two counts we see that the practice of torture is very often an injustice to those who suffer from it (let alone being nearly always ineffective in its results), and it is also an injustice to smear the reputation of an entire nation thereby making it less safe. Accordingly, in their opposition to torture, goodness and the security dwell together.
Mike Caba, Bend
This article appears in May 7-13, 2009.
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get a grip america! our deal was sealed with the devil with state sponsored abortion! Are you saying a little water up the nose of a terrorist is worse than taking the life of a defenseless and innocent baby?
Typical partisan bull puckey. We routinely water-board our military. Do we torture our own soldiers? The extreme left socialists bung wads use the word ‘torture’ to describe water-boarding as an inflammatory buzz word as a political strategy. Your own Marxist Queen, Nancy Pelosi it turns out, lied in her dentures about not knowing anything about it. The CIA briefed members of congress about water-boarding more than forty times, not a peep from anyone until it was deemed possible as a way to trash Republicans. I’ll laugh my ass off when we capture a terrorist who admits there is a plan to nuke a couple of American cities and the left wing fruitcakes decide that they would rather 250,000 Americans die than squirt a little water up some rag-heads nose. Lets see how that sets with the public. Bush had the guts to do what needed doing and kept us safe. Time will tell if the limp wristed wimp Egotistical Great American Destroyer Obama does as well. If we have any attack on us from those the Marxist Administration no longer considers terrorists, he’s out on his ass in ’12.
Larry – Many of us on the left will be happy to see our Marxist Queen go down for violating the ethics that have governed this country for over 200 years. But in the process the Fascist Bush clan is going to go down as well. Safety is not our countries highest calling and I’m sure you’re not going to argue that the world got safer under George Bush. And if we get attacked by terrorists are you telling me that you are going to, in our hour of need, turn on our president. You know that just doesn’t seem like the ol’ Republican mantra of Country first. P.S Ragheads? Don’t you feel a little rascist getting down on that level.
Thank you for your comments generally, yet I think the use of pejoratives (e.g. รข rag-headรข ย, รข fascistรข ย) weakens the strength of the arguments of those who employ them. Note also that being contra torture is not necessarily a partisan issue, (i.e. Republican v. Democrats) in that both presidential candidates from the last election were opposed to the practice. McCainรข โขs comment in paraphrase: รข The one thing that allowed me to endure torture at the hands of my captures was the belief that we Americans didnรข โขt do such things.รข ย Regarding abortion, nothing in my letter is based upon a position for or against this practice, thus the comment in this regard is a non sequitur. Concerning the hidden nuke scenario, see the last sentence of my 2nd paragraph. Overall, itรข โขs clearly a tough, emotional issue, and I appreciate being able to discuss it with you all (sans the name calling). Thanks again.
Larry–
“Routinely water board our own soldiers?” Seals, Rangers, Green Berets are NOT water boarded as a spa treatment. They are tortured to get them to understand that it is torture–what to expect–and to get the weak to drop out. They don’t show up for water boarding in a shades and a bathrobe. And I know there are a bunch of vets who read this–how many of you were water boarded. No big deal–Hannity hasn’t done his ‘water boarding for charity’ thing yet–why not? But then, I have never been water boarded as you must have been to give this testimonial.
And I disagree about ‘rag heads’ being a pejorative. It’s not deprecatory, it’s racist! Just as racist as the position that ‘semi-skilled Arabs’ are too stupid to plan and execute anything like 9/11. It had to be somebody–anybody–else! Wow!
Amazing that a discussion about torture and the very soul and essence of our nation fails to draw as much interest as a blog entry on the weather. ‘Hey, Jake, it’s Chinatown, let it go.’
I agree with Mr. Caba’s analysis regarding the use of torture, moral vs. utilitarian, and unfortunately the end outweighing the means seems to be the rule of the day (look at AIG). Bigotry and conspiracies aside, any soldier who has been to a good SERE course has experienced an example of discomfort and pain, but I don’t believe that is what is being referenced when we speak of “torture.”
The problem with the implementation of torture lies in the assumption of knowledge of the prisoner versus actual knowledge. Torture fails miserably because it is immeasurable. Intel received as a result of extreme physical duress is either fictional(tells you whatever you want to hear) or nonexistant(really does not know anything).
It is nonfunctional. Why not take the moral high road?
Those suffering from Bush Derangement Syndrome (BDS)need to understand that their opinion on whether water-boarding is torture or not, is just that: their opinion. Your opinion, BDS Zombies, is not fact.
We water-board members of our own military. Do we shove bamboo slivers under their fingernails? Do we cut off their genitals with dull knives? Do we pour gasoline on them and set them on fire? Do we cut off their eyelids? Do we disenbowel them and skip rope with their intestines and ask them to keep count while we do hot pepper?
That’s torture. Wake up, Zombies. Get a life.
Bush is history. Obama is rapidly destroying America. You got your change you can believe in. Relish that your intrinsic stupidity, short sightedness,systemic avoidance of reality, and loathing of the Constitution has won.
Welcome to France, BDS-ites.
For now.
Like the Chimp in Charge, the BDS against water up a rag heads nose fail to comprehend their own hypocritical schizophrenia. Water-boarding is oh so evil but pulling a birthing infant half way out of the vagina, knocking a hole in the back of it’s head and sucking out the brains with a vacuum is perfectly acceptable to these BDS morons. The hollow headed infant is then thrown in the trash as medical waste.
Is there any moral equivalency here? Up yours.
The comments to this article make me proud to be an American. The comments demonstrate that the USA is a land full of brilliant, level-headed, rational, open-minded, thinking people.
I wish I was in France. ๐